Wolves vs. Wounded Warrior Grizzlies Part 1-Game Day Thread

[FNG]

Phone call overheard late last night after the game:

Juancho: Damn, disappointing loss, Vando, huh?

Vando: Yeah, we can't be losing to a team missing its best players. On the positive side, I noticed that we did outscore Memphis by 7 points when you were on the court though...nice work. On the other hand, we got outscored by 14 when I was out there. I'm watching you and learning a few things...like how to box out on every defensive rebound. Gotta admit you're great on the boards every night, and one of the reasons we outrebounded Memphis tonight.

Juancho: That's what I wanted to talk to you about. Yeah, I was a team-best +7 and you were -14, and yet there's a message board in town that has me and Ricky as the main reasons we lost tonight. What the fuck? Isn't the point of the game to outscore your opponent?

Vando: Ha, right? Yeah, I get love every night even though I'm raw and often out of control, and you get ripped every night! Let's face it, Juancho...I'm a lot more fun to watch than you are! And those air-balled threes aren't helping you get some love...you need to get your stroke back like last year. I get why our offense works better when you're out there instead of me...the threat of you hitting a three forces their PF out of the paint, and opens up the lane for Beas and DLO. You're not pretty at all, Juancho, but there's a reason Beas looks so much better attacking the basket with you out there instead of me. But watch out...if I can learn to make a 3-point shot or if you don't start making a few more, I'm taking your job, dude.

Juancho: Yeah, even I like watching the game more when you're in there...I'll never be fun to watch. But shit man, it still bothers me when you get all the love and I get blamed for the loss, and the team did 21 points better with me out there compared to you! Ok, gotta go...Adam Sandler is calling me about another deal. Let's both play better Friday night, and kick some Griz butt!

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Phone call overheard late last night after the game:

Juancho: Damn, disappointing loss, Vando, huh?

Vando: Yeah, we can't be losing to a team missing its best players. On the positive side, I noticed that we did outscore Memphis by 7 points when you were on the court though...nice work. On the other hand, we got outscored by 14 when I was out there. I'm watching you and learning a few things...like how to box out on every defensive rebound. Gotta admit you're great on the boards every night, and one of the reasons we outrebounded Memphis tonight.

Juancho: That's what I wanted to talk to you about. Yeah, I was a team-best +7 and you were -14, and yet there's a message board in town that has me and Ricky as the main reasons we lost tonight. What the fuck? Isn't the point of the game to outscore your opponent?

Vando: Ha, right? Yeah, I get love every night even though I'm raw and often out of control, and you get ripped every night! Let's face it, Juancho...I'm a lot more fun to watch than you are! And those air-balled threes aren't helping you get some love...you need to get your stroke back like last year. I get why our offense works better when you're out there instead of me...the threat of you hitting a three forces their PF out of the paint, and opens up the lane for Beas and DLO. You're not pretty at all, Juancho, but there's a reason Beas looks so much better attacking the basket with you out there instead of me. But watch out...if I can learn to make a 3-point shot or if you don't start making a few more, I'm taking your job, dude.

Juancho: Yeah, even I like watching the game more when you're in there...I'll never be fun to watch. But shit man, it still bothers me when you get all the love and I get blamed for the loss, and the team did 21 points better with me out there compared to you! Ok, gotta go...Adam Sandler is calling me about another deal. Let's both play better Friday night, and kick some Griz butt!

Nice.

I'm not going to defend Vando's play last night because it was far from great. On the other hand, we know that single game +/- can be very mis-leading. Now sometimes it isn't, meaning that at times you can draw a very clear line from the way a guy played and the way the team performed while he was on the court. As much as I love Ricky, you can make a case that his -17 number or whatever it was last night is largely due to the way he played.

In Juancho's case, I'm not giving him credit for his plus rating. Yes, he's a solid defensive rebounder, but he is hurting us in every other aspect of the game right now: He's missing too many shots and offers minimal resistance defensively. Now if he was canning 3's at a high rate, I think he would be fine. But he's not even doing the very thing he is supposed to as a stretch 4.

In the case of last night, BOTH Vando and Juancho let us down. So did anyone else involved in that 4th quarter fiasco. Heck, even KAT didn't do his best work in that quarter and was getting manhandled by JV all night.

[FNG]

Q, I believe I was the first person on the Vando bus after you, and I am really looking forward to the time where he proves he is an NBA starting PF...he brings so much to the court, and the potential is clearly there. But I would argue Juancho brings something else to the team at least as important as solid defensive rebounding, and that's spacing. Even though his 3-point success rate is only 31% in the first 11 games, opposing coaches clearly remember his 42% last year on 5 attempts per game, and that makes the defending PF go out to the 3-point line to take his shot away. This provides a clear advantage in spacing over when Vando is out there (similar to the spacing advantage when KAT is out there rather than Ed Davis), and our cutters take advantage of it. Jim Peterson pointed this out two games ago when DLO made a perfect bounce pass to Beasley for an easy layup through a lane that was open because the center was in the corner guarding KAT and the PF was at the top of the key guarding Juancho. As much as I love Vando, the lane is always going to be clogged up when he's out there. That's one reason I would like to see Ryan experiment with Edwards in for Okogie in the starting lineup (even though I am loving Josh's game these days). The spacing that KAT, DLO, Beasley and Juancho brings would give Edwards much more room to operate in than when he's out there with Rubio, Vando and Culver. Further, a high-energy second unit of Rubio, Josh, Culver, Vando and Reid would wreak havoc defensively and lead to a lot of steals and layups.

Vando brings a completely different game, and frankly one that I enjoy watching much more even when he is a -14 and Juancho is a +7. There's never an offensive rebound that he doesn't think he has a chance for, and his defense is so much better than I ever would have anticipated for a guy playing his first meaningful NBA minutes. Asking him to be a shooter is not realistic...he missed his only three in college, and only made 63% of his free throws. But I'm on the bus because I see a lot of Rodman in him, and think he can carve out a nice role in the NBA.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Kat went off in the post game press conference. Defended Ryan, took the blame, was pissed off and sounded like a leader.

I think he asks out soon, talk is cheap.

I'm beat down as a fan

Saunders is not a good coach.

But he's not at the top of the list for blame right now. But it's more convenient... and less scary... to think that it could be that easy when it's more likely this organization is in legit trouble for the foreseeable future.

Ya my anger for Ryan is misguided. I still think he sucks and might be the worst coach in the NBA. There are still way to many issues with this team. I'm legit worried the Wolves are going to get moved and it makes me sad and I'm a beat down as a fan.

Hernangomez has played 216 NBA games.

Over 202 of them... he's shot 34.5% behind the arc. Slightly below the league average.
In 14 of them in a contract year for what was the worst team in the league... he shot 42%.

Is he actually a guy capable of sustaining significantly better than average efficiency behind the arc?
If not... Is his average-ish three point shooting enough to offset his deficiencies?

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

The problem FNG is now your starting lineup is tilted 100% toward offensive-oriented players and two of those five aren't even good at that right now (Juancho and Edwards). Okogie at least gives us one guy that can expend 100% of his effort on defense.

As for Vando, I agree he's not ready to assume the starting PF role. Neither is Juancho. We basically don't have an NBA-caliber starting PF on the roster. Vando may be that guy eventually, but he's not ready yet. He's only 21 though and has a lot of room to grow. We basically need a Player TBD/Vando combination at PF but I have no clue how Rosas goes and acquires Player TBD. Our asset values our dwindling with every clanked Culver, Juancho, Rubio, and Edwards shot.

[TheFuture]

The problem FNG is now your starting lineup is tilted 100% toward offensive-oriented players and two of those five aren't even good at that right now (Juancho and Edwards). Okogie at least gives us one guy that can expend 100% of his effort on defense.

As for Vando, I agree he's not ready to assume the starting PF role. Neither is Juancho. We basically don't have an NBA-caliber starting PF on the roster. Vando may be that guy eventually, but he's not ready yet. He's only 21 though and has a lot of room to grow. We basically need a Player TBD/Vando combination at PF but I have no clue how Rosas goes and acquires Player TBD. Our asset values our dwindling with every clanked Culver, Juancho, Rubio, and Edwards shot.

We dont have a starting 3 or 4. 2 is questionable, though I love Okogie - I think he is the heart and soul of this team. Our PG cannot defend, and KAT is not particularly good there either. So we would at least need to control the boards and be efficient offensively from the 3, because that is the system now. So we have a guy in Vanderbilt that provides energy defensively and can rebound like hell, but cannot shoot. Then guys like Layman and Juancgo that can at least be a threat from the 3, but they do not rebound nor provide defense.

It is a terrible position to be in.

[FNG]

The problem FNG is now your starting lineup is tilted 100% toward offensive-oriented players and two of those five aren't even good at that right now (Juancho and Edwards). Okogie at least gives us one guy that can expend 100% of his effort on defense.

As for Vando, I agree he's not ready to assume the starting PF role. Neither is Juancho. We basically don't have an NBA-caliber starting PF on the roster. Vando may be that guy eventually, but he's not ready yet. He's only 21 though and has a lot of room to grow. We basically need a Player TBD/Vando combination at PF but I have no clue how Rosas goes and acquires Player TBD. Our asset values our dwindling with every clanked Culver, Juancho, Rubio, and Edwards shot.

Yep, my starting lineup would be quite challenged defensively to be sure, and my second team would not be able to function well in a half court offense and would have to rely heavily on turnovers and fast breaks. Maybe it doesn't work at all. But I'm trying to find a way to let Ant work in a less congested fashion, and adding a couple shooters to the guys he's on the court with would really help him. We still need to find out if Ant is going to be worthy of a #1 pick...he certainly hasn't been anywhere close the past two games...and I feel we're not unlocking his offensive potential by combining him with Rubio/Culver/Vando/Reid. I'd like to see what he looks like out of the gate with DLO/Beas/Juancho/KAT. Ha, we might see a lot of 42-40 first quarters!

[kekgeek]

Kat went off in the post game press conference. Defended Ryan, took the blame, was pissed off and sounded like a leader.

I think he asks out soon, talk is cheap.

I'm beat down as a fan

Saunders is not a good coach.

But he's not at the top of the list for blame right now. But it's more convenient... and less scary... to think that it could be that easy when it's more likely this organization is in legit trouble for the foreseeable future.

Ya my anger for Ryan is misguided. I still think he sucks and might be the worst coach in the NBA. There are still way to many issues with this team. I'm legit worried the Wolves are going to get moved and it makes me sad and I'm a beat down as a fan.

Hernangomez has played 216 NBA games.

Over 202 of them... he's shot 34.5% behind the arc. Slightly below the league average.
In 14 of them in a contract year for what was the worst team in the league... he shot 42%.

Is he actually a guy capable of sustaining significantly better than average efficiency behind the arc?
If not... Is his average-ish three point shooting enough to offset his deficiencies?

100% agree I mentioned that all offseason. That the Wolves probably saw the best version of Hernangomez last year with unrepeatable 3pt shooting and even with that he wasn't even good last year at probably his best version.

Wolves have so many holes,to be honest not even talking about the wolves terrible defense, the Wolves are a terrible off the ball team. Kat is not good off the ball, he is a terrible screener and not a great cutter (obviously he makes up for all this), Rubio is a bad off the ball player, is a non factor as a catch and shoot player, teams can play off him, his greatest strengths are setting up teammates but he can't do that without the ball. Dlo is a really bad off the ball player, he is a decent catch and shoot player but he really never comes off pin downs or we rarely get him moving to set up open shots when he is playing off the ball. Edwards we are seeing he is never played off ball in his life and looks lost on what to do when he doesn't have the ball. He has never learned how and when to cut. Culver and Okogie are good off ball cutters but they are such bad shooters it really kills there ability to make plays. Davis is good off the ball but the issue is when he gets the ball he is bad with it. Vanderbilt is looking like he could be good off the ball.

I would say the wolves have 2 players that are actually good off the ball and that is Beasley because he is a great shooter and knows the movements how to get open shots and then Layman, Layman is a great cutter by far the best player the wolves in terms of cutting but he is our for personal reasons right now and he is just not that good anywhere else.

Wolves is a team where there best players need the ball to succeed but outside of Kat they struggle to produce when they don't have the ball.

[kekgeek]

"We need to find more production in that area." -- Ryan Saunders on the 4. Says they are looking at Edwards in that role as well.

[Coolbreeze44]

Edwards is not a good shooter. If I was defending him I would let him take any 3 he wants. I'd want him to take that shot. I would play to restrict his drive, and if you can effectively do that he becomes a very limited player.