The Rage Monster wrote:Everyone, especially players and coaches need to (should be allowed to) hold refs more responsible after games. I'm a better dead than red guy but man that's got to be a tough loss to take if you're a Wisconsin player. Two calls near the end, Winslow stepping out of bounds and Winslow touching the ball last before it went out of bounds, directly lead to 5 Blue Devil points. Those are cut and dry rules with no room for interpretation and need to be made correctly every single time. The fact the refs couldn't even make the correct call on the 2nd one even with the help of replay should be considered 100% unacceptable and that crew should never be allowed to ref a D1 game again.
Wisconsin had two fouls called on them in the first half and didn't take advantage. The calls balanced out during the rest of the game so the better team won the game last night. A Big 10 team only being called for 2 fouls in a half is a joke. The refs were terrible for both teams so the game wasn't decided by a couple calls at the end. Wisconsin's offense disappearing at the end cost them the game.
The Rage Monster wrote:Everyone, especially players and coaches need to (should be allowed to) hold refs more responsible after games. I'm a better dead than red guy but man that's got to be a tough loss to take if you're a Wisconsin player. Two calls near the end, Winslow stepping out of bounds and Winslow touching the ball last before it went out of bounds, directly lead to 5 Blue Devil points. Those are cut and dry rules with no room for interpretation and need to be made correctly every single time. The fact the refs couldn't even make the correct call on the 2nd one even with the help of replay should be considered 100% unacceptable and that crew should never be allowed to ref a D1 game again.
Wisconsin had two fouls called on them in the first half and didn't take advantage. The calls balanced out during the rest of the game so the better team won the game last night. A Big 10 team only being called for 2 fouls in a half is a joke. The refs were terrible for both teams so the game wasn't decided by a couple calls at the end. Wisconsin's offense disappearing at the end cost them the game.
Like I said I'm not a Badger fan so I'm not saying that's where the game was won or lost. The difference is fouls are relatively subjective, there's contact all the time and refs try to determine if it crosses the line and is actually a foul. I don't generally don't criticize fouls because of that nature. The calls I'm referring to are not subjective. If a player steps on the line or is the last to touch it the ball goes to the other team, it's that simple and those calls should NEVER be missed especially with the help of replay. And honestly those weren't tough calls to make, it was very obvious Winslow stepped on the baseline and even live I immediately said they should review that out of bounds call because it looked like it rolled off Winslow's fingers.
Camden wrote:Bo Ryan's a jackass for his comments last night, especially considering the two huge plays late that went Wisconsin's way against Kentucky.
The shotclock violation that went uncalled and resulted in two points.
The foul called on Harrison when he went straight up, very minimal contact. Not even remotely close to being a legit foul. Wisconsin got points from that as well.
Refs determined that game.
Wisconsin shouldn't have even been in the title game, but nonetheless, they lost because they gave up a 9-point lead to Grayson Allen off the bench.
Haha wow someone's a little bitter he didn't get to see Towns play one more game.
The shot clock violation happened almost right after Lyles "punched" a Wisconsin guy in the face that went uncalled. They were pretty bad but saying the refs determined that game is a bit of a stretch.
The Rage Monster wrote:Everyone, especially players and coaches need to (should be allowed to) hold refs more responsible after games. I'm a better dead than red guy but man that's got to be a tough loss to take if you're a Wisconsin player. Two calls near the end, Winslow stepping out of bounds and Winslow touching the ball last before it went out of bounds, directly lead to 5 Blue Devil points. Those are cut and dry rules with no room for interpretation and need to be made correctly every single time. The fact the refs couldn't even make the correct call on the 2nd one even with the help of replay should be considered 100% unacceptable and that crew should never be allowed to ref a D1 game again.
Wisconsin had two fouls called on them in the first half and didn't take advantage. The calls balanced out during the rest of the game so the better team won the game last night. A Big 10 team only being called for 2 fouls in a half is a joke. The refs were terrible for both teams so the game wasn't decided by a couple calls at the end. Wisconsin's offense disappearing at the end cost them the game.
Like I said I'm not a Badger fan so I'm not saying that's where the game was won or lost. The difference is fouls are relatively subjective, there's contact all the time and refs try to determine if it crosses the line and is actually a foul. I don't generally don't criticize fouls because of that nature. The calls I'm referring to are not subjective. If a player steps on the line or is the last to touch it the ball goes to the other team, it's that simple and those calls should NEVER be missed especially with the help of replay. And honestly those weren't tough calls to make, it was very obvious Winslow stepped on the baseline and even live I immediately said they should review that out of bounds call because it looked like it rolled off Winslow's fingers.
The Winslow call with the foot on the line was not a reviewable play because it didn't happen in the last two minutes of the game. Missing that call live is understandable and frankly his foot was only on the line because Hayes shoved him on the rebound which should have been a foul. That's why I didn't really care that the call was missed and at the end of the day it wasn't a reviewable play anyway to get it right.
Cam's point was Ryan shouldn't be complaining not who won or not won. Neither of those games wee decided by the officiating it was players making plays. Wisconsin made the plays down the stretch to get to the championship game and Duke made plays to win the championship game. I do think there can be things to improve officiating in every sport but man it's a tough out there.
Just out of curiosity who out there has experience officiating sports? If so what sports and what level of competition?
Me? My experience may show why I'm not into complaining about officiating and I assure you I've seen a ton of bad officiating. Lol I was a PE major for a few years at a very small college so I officiated all the intramural sports except I didn't do much softball. I was the student assistant director for the schools intramural programs for 2 school years so 5 days a week I was I did some city league flag football as well during that time and that was a nice source of income. Fortunately all I had to do was lines for those city league games and all the other officials were guys that did the HS football games and were pretty good. That league was no joke there were some former Husker football bench guys that played in that league. The toughest level of competition I officiated was basketball class games one year. The best of the best in my college going at each other and I was out of my league and had to just let guys play and told them so. There was a guy that the next summer was offered to walk on to the basketball team at Nebraska (it was a division 1 school but they sucked so maybe that's not saying much lol) and there were 2-3 other players at my school that were around that level. It was an incredible time of talent at that school. The level of interior play and speed in those games I wasn't prepared for. I haven't officiated for 10 years but in basketball and football when I stopped I considered myself pretty good at it at the levels I worked which were low levels but I take a lot from what I saw all those year. Sometimes I actully miss it but then I play a city church league game where people are whining about calls (yes some are bad it's city league) and I lose that fun feeling fast. lol
I heard an interesting radio discussion today about Okafor's foul problems actually helping Duke last night, because the backup center Jefferson was so much more effective in containing Kaminsky than Jahlil was. I certainly noticed it, and Coach K didn't seem to be in too much of a hurry to put Jahlil back in. I still think Okafor is worthy of a top 3 pick, but his defensive struggles last night reinforced my opinion that he is behind Towns.
Terrific game last night. It's difficult for me to evaluate Coach K because he always has 5-6 McDonalds All-Americans on his roster. He's clearly a great recruiter...I don't know if he is a great coach. Give me that roster, and I think I can take them to the final four. Bo Ryan, on the other hand, is clearly a great coach. I'm not saying he doesn't have talent on his roster, but not nearly at the same level as Duke's talent. While Duke has it's pick of blue chippers from all over the country, the Badgers played 7 guys from primarily small towns in Wisconsin, Illinois and Ohio. The game felt to me a little like the championship game in the movie Hoosiers, and even though Sconny was favored by a point, I saw them as the underdog. I would have liked to have seen a Badger win.
longstrangetrip wrote:I heard an interesting radio discussion today about Okafor's foul problems actually helping Duke last night, because the backup center Jefferson was so much more effective in containing Kaminsky than Jahlil was. I certainly noticed it, and Coach K didn't seem to be in too much of a hurry to put Jahlil back in. I still think Okafor is worthy of a top 3 pick, but his defensive struggles last night reinforced my opinion that he is behind Towns.
Terrific game last night. It's difficult for me to evaluate Coach K because he always has 5-6 McDonalds All-Americans on his roster. He's clearly a great recruiter...I don't know if he is a great coach. Give me that roster, and I think I can take them to the final four. Bo Ryan, on the other hand, is clearly a great coach. I'm not saying he doesn't have talent on his roster, but not nearly at the same level as Duke's talent. While Duke has it's pick of blue chippers from all over the country, the Badgers played 7 guys from primarily small towns in Wisconsin, Illinois and Ohio. The game felt to me a little like the championship game in the movie Hoosiers, and even though Sconny was favored by a point, I saw them as the underdog. I would have liked to have seen a Badger win.
Coach K is the second greatest college coach of all time. He has 5 titles and he's had to adapt his roster building multiple times. He had rosters staring veteran players slowly working to this year with multiple freshmen and he's won titles with both extremes and rosters in between. There's a reason he was picked to coach team USA. He's the current Pop of college basketball. He's adapted and thrived in multiple era's of basketball.
I don't know, Khans. I would say he was picked to coach the USA team because of his success at Duke. And I would say his success at Duke is primarily due to the number of top recruits he is able to attract every year. I mean, really...compare the two rosters last night. A bunch of 5 star recruits against a bunch of 3-4 star recruits. Heck, Duke had 5-star recruits on the bench! I don't think we will ever really know how good a coach Coach K is until he is forced to coach a team that isn't ridiculously loaded. I used to argue that Gene Keady was a much better coach than Bobby Knight because he would go toe-to toe with him every year with half the talent.
Saying that Coach K is the greatest college coach is the same is saying Phil Jackson is the greatest NBA coach because he has won twice as many titles as everyone else. Maybe Phil is the greatest, but like Coach K, we will never know...because he has never won without a roster superior to his opponents. Did Jackson win 11 titles because he is a great coach, or because he had Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Jordan, Pippin, Jabbar, etc.? I'll take Pop and his 5 championships over Phil any day, just like I'll take Bo Ryan over Mike K.
Recruiting is a major part of being a great college coach. Bo Ryan is a great coach, but if he can't recruit 5 star players then he can't be considered in the same class as Coach K. College is a lot more than just X's and O's. You have to recruit well and you have to develop those recruits. Duke finished the year so much better than when they started. That is Coach K developing his All-American players into great players. If All-Americans meant automatic titles then Calipari would win every year because he gets the most All-Americans every year. Self and Roy Williams would also have just as many titles as Coach K because their teams are stacked with just as many All-Americans on a yearly basis. Coach K recruits top players, develops them and wins with them. That is what you have to do to be considered an elite coach in college and he has done all three over multiple decades and he's adapted at every turn. Knocking him because his recruits are good is just dumb. It's actually harder to take a team full of freshmen and turn them into a champion than taking 3-4 year veterans who have team chemistry and know the system like the back of their hand. The 3-4 year guys also have a mental edge and are usually more poised, but last night Coach K's freshmen showed to be the more poised players and that's why they won.
Khans, we are in complete agreement that Coach K is a great recruiter. Where we disagree is that I believe there are many coaches who could have won a national championship with that Duke roster. And I don't agree that North Carolina, Kansas and Kentucky recruit as much talent year in and year out as Duke... They are great recruiters, to be sure...just not like Coach K. Take a look at the most recent recruiting year for example:
Duke was #1 last year with the 1st, 7th and 12th best high school players going to Durham, and without doing the research, I would guess that is fairly typical.
I'm talking X's and O's and getting the most out of your players. And I'm saying we will never really know how Coach K. or Phil Jackson for that matter, really stack up against other coaches. We don't know that Coach K made his the recruiting class in the nation better...we only know that he didn't make them worse.
