Minnesota Sports Forum

bleedspeed177 wrote:Left out Marquese Chriss. Dunn and Hield are supposed to be more of the baked goods type. Dunn is just not ready and I see Tyus as a better prospect as a PG and he is younger by at least 2 years. Murray had youth on his side.

Interestingly. Embiid is only 2 days older than Dunn. Saric is actually younger. If you draft an upper classman in the top 5 they need to hit the ground running or the future starts to look bleak for them. I am just being a realist.

The only difference between an upperclassman and a lowerclassman is how long you can get them in their prime. Team's draft underclassman because they have more time to develop them and if they are good you get them for 2-3-4 years longer in their prime. Dunn is 22. Not 25. If he comes back awesome next year with a summer working with Thibs does that still make his future look bleak? No. The difference between the two is a Murray has 5-6 summers to figure it out and Dunn has 2. Once you hit 24-25-26 that's who you pretty much are as a player with a few exceptions. I just don't get how you expected Dunn to contribute more when his position was blocked by a guy who's been a pro basketball player for a decade. Are your expectations that a top 5 pick at this point in the season would have already beat out...oh wait another top 5 pick with years of NBA experience over him? What can he do in 17 minutes a night to improve his future outlook? He'd have to go 3-4 every other game to get his shooting percentages up because he doesn't shoot the ball much. He doesn't run an offense because he's dumping the ball off and going to the corner a lot more than he's running a PnR and probing the defense. I guess I don't get what he should be doing at this point to make him look so much better than he has when I don't think it's reasonable for him to have already taken Rubio's spot after 1/2 a season in the league. He's not getting the minutes and opportunity to grow from mistakes Lavine, Wiggins and Towns all got. He stuck behind the most veteran player on the roster we have playing consistent minutes. It's fine being realistic, but realistic also means giving the guy more than his rookie year to prove he can play in the league because most rookies suck.

Oh and the guy who would have been ahead of Murray and Hield in the rotation happens to lead the NBA in minutes so I don't think they would have had much run to prove themselves here either in their rookie year.

The point is if you are good enough as an underclassmen you leave and go pro and it opens up spots. Towns, Wiggins, LaVine, and Jones should all still be in college and are better then Dunn at this point.

I am pulling for the guy. Love his attributes but am not blind. I am preparing for the guy to have a Corey Brewer type career.

I would say Brewer, Foye, McCants, Flynn, and Rider all showed more promise as rookies and only Foye was older. Jones didn't look good as a rookie, but he was 19 and made a huge jump. I know there is stats out there showing improvement by age and by year in the league. I would guess age is way more important.

Well said Kahns, agree completely!

khans2k5 wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:Left out Marquese Chriss. Dunn and Hield are supposed to be more of the baked goods type. Dunn is just not ready and I see Tyus as a better prospect as a PG and he is younger by at least 2 years. Murray had youth on his side.

Interestingly. Embiid is only 2 days older than Dunn. Saric is actually younger. If you draft an upper classman in the top 5 they need to hit the ground running or the future starts to look bleak for them. I am just being a realist.

The only difference between an upperclassman and a lowerclassman is how long you can get them in their prime. Team's draft underclassman because they have more time to develop them and if they are good you get them for 2-3-4 years longer in their prime. Dunn is 22. Not 25. If he comes back awesome next year with a summer working with Thibs does that still make his future look bleak? No. The difference between the two is a Murray has 5-6 summers to figure it out and Dunn has 2. Once you hit 24-25-26 that's who you pretty much are as a player with a few exceptions. I just don't get how you expected Dunn to contribute more when his position was blocked by a guy who's been a pro basketball player for a decade. Are your expectations that a top 5 pick at this point in the season would have already beat out...oh wait another top 5 pick with years of NBA experience over him? What can he do in 17 minutes a night to improve his future outlook? He'd have to go 3-4 every other game to get his shooting percentages up because he doesn't shoot the ball much. He doesn't run an offense because he's dumping the ball off and going to the corner a lot more than he's running a PnR and probing the defense. I guess I don't get what he should be doing at this point to make him look so much better than he has when I don't think it's reasonable for him to have already taken Rubio's spot after 1/2 a season in the league. He's not getting the minutes and opportunity to grow from mistakes Lavine, Wiggins and Towns all got. He stuck behind the most veteran player on the roster we have playing consistent minutes. It's fine being realistic, but realistic also means giving the guy more than his rookie year to prove he can play in the league because most rookies suck.

Oh and the guy who would have been ahead of Murray and Hield in the rotation happens to lead the NBA in minutes so I don't think they would have had much run to prove themselves here either in their rookie year.

I agree with most of this. But the primary reason teams draft underclassmen is because they are the most talented players.

bleedspeed177 wrote:The point is if you are good enough as an underclassmen you leave and go pro and it opens up spots. Towns, Wiggins, LaVine, and Jones should all still be in college and are better then Dunn at this point.

I am pulling for the guy. Love his attributes but am not blind. I am preparing for the guy to have a Corey Brewer type career.

I would say Brewer, Foye, McCants, Flynn, and Rider all showed more promise as rookies and only Foye was older. Jones didn't look good as a rookie, but he was 19 and made a huge jump. I know there is stats out there showing improvement by age and by year in the league. I would guess age is way more important.

What? Age is more important than experience when it comes to improving? That's just not true. There's a reason so many people focus on year 3 in the league and not a specific age. Turns out you are more likely to improve when you are training in the NBA with NBA people than playing college ball twice a week and going to class. That's why they improve. Westbrook, Kawhi, Derozan, Lowry Harden, Curry, Jimmy Butler, Draymond Green, Klay Thompson, Chris Paul, Damian Lillard, CJ Mcollum, Kemba Walker. All guys with more than 1 year of college experience and a lot of them were not great players in their rookie season and took a couple years to hit their stride. Lots of examples of multi-year college players who are great today because they developed in the NBA. Younger players are more attractive because they are 21-22-23 when they get the base level of experience under their belt rather than 24-25-26, but that base level of experience still needs to be there. 19-20-21 year olds don't run this league.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:Left out Marquese Chriss. Dunn and Hield are supposed to be more of the baked goods type. Dunn is just not ready and I see Tyus as a better prospect as a PG and he is younger by at least 2 years. Murray had youth on his side.

Interestingly. Embiid is only 2 days older than Dunn. Saric is actually younger. If you draft an upper classman in the top 5 they need to hit the ground running or the future starts to look bleak for them. I am just being a realist.

The only difference between an upperclassman and a lowerclassman is how long you can get them in their prime. Team's draft underclassman because they have more time to develop them and if they are good you get them for 2-3-4 years longer in their prime. Dunn is 22. Not 25. If he comes back awesome next year with a summer working with Thibs does that still make his future look bleak? No. The difference between the two is a Murray has 5-6 summers to figure it out and Dunn has 2. Once you hit 24-25-26 that's who you pretty much are as a player with a few exceptions. I just don't get how you expected Dunn to contribute more when his position was blocked by a guy who's been a pro basketball player for a decade. Are your expectations that a top 5 pick at this point in the season would have already beat out...oh wait another top 5 pick with years of NBA experience over him? What can he do in 17 minutes a night to improve his future outlook? He'd have to go 3-4 every other game to get his shooting percentages up because he doesn't shoot the ball much. He doesn't run an offense because he's dumping the ball off and going to the corner a lot more than he's running a PnR and probing the defense. I guess I don't get what he should be doing at this point to make him look so much better than he has when I don't think it's reasonable for him to have already taken Rubio's spot after 1/2 a season in the league. He's not getting the minutes and opportunity to grow from mistakes Lavine, Wiggins and Towns all got. He stuck behind the most veteran player on the roster we have playing consistent minutes. It's fine being realistic, but realistic also means giving the guy more than his rookie year to prove he can play in the league because most rookies suck.

Oh and the guy who would have been ahead of Murray and Hield in the rotation happens to lead the NBA in minutes so I don't think they would have had much run to prove themselves here either in their rookie year.

I agree with most of this. But the primary reason teams draft underclassmen is because they are the most talented players.

They are seen as the most talented players because they are doing it at a younger age, but that doesn't automatically make them more talented. Would you rather have Tyreke or Curry, Derozan, Demarre Carroll, Patrick Beverley, Jeff Teague? Brandon Knight or Kemba, Klay, Burks, Leonard, Vucevic, Faried, Parsons, Isaiah Thomas? The top of the top is usually better I will give you that, but the guys in the 2nd/3rd tier are a much bigger shot that you are leaving a more talented, but more experienced player on the board because younger is seen as almost automatically better.

UNCLE

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:Left out Marquese Chriss. Dunn and Hield are supposed to be more of the baked goods type. Dunn is just not ready and I see Tyus as a better prospect as a PG and he is younger by at least 2 years. Murray had youth on his side.

Interestingly. Embiid is only 2 days older than Dunn. Saric is actually younger. If you draft an upper classman in the top 5 they need to hit the ground running or the future starts to look bleak for them. I am just being a realist.

The only difference between an upperclassman and a lowerclassman is how long you can get them in their prime. Team's draft underclassman because they have more time to develop them and if they are good you get them for 2-3-4 years longer in their prime. Dunn is 22. Not 25. If he comes back awesome next year with a summer working with Thibs does that still make his future look bleak? No. The difference between the two is a Murray has 5-6 summers to figure it out and Dunn has 2. Once you hit 24-25-26 that's who you pretty much are as a player with a few exceptions. I just don't get how you expected Dunn to contribute more when his position was blocked by a guy who's been a pro basketball player for a decade. Are your expectations that a top 5 pick at this point in the season would have already beat out...oh wait another top 5 pick with years of NBA experience over him? What can he do in 17 minutes a night to improve his future outlook? He'd have to go 3-4 every other game to get his shooting percentages up because he doesn't shoot the ball much. He doesn't run an offense because he's dumping the ball off and going to the corner a lot more than he's running a PnR and probing the defense. I guess I don't get what he should be doing at this point to make him look so much better than he has when I don't think it's reasonable for him to have already taken Rubio's spot after 1/2 a season in the league. He's not getting the minutes and opportunity to grow from mistakes Lavine, Wiggins and Towns all got. He stuck behind the most veteran player on the roster we have playing consistent minutes. It's fine being realistic, but realistic also means giving the guy more than his rookie year to prove he can play in the league because most rookies suck.

Oh and the guy who would have been ahead of Murray and Hield in the rotation happens to lead the NBA in minutes so I don't think they would have had much run to prove themselves here either in their rookie year.

I agree with most of this. But the primary reason teams draft underclassmen is because they are the most talented players.

They are seen as the most talented players because they are doing it at a younger age, but that doesn't automatically make them more talented. Would you rather have Tyreke or Curry, Derozan, Demarre Carroll, Patrick Beverley, Jeff Teague? Brandon Knight or Kemba, Klay, Burks, Leonard, Vucevic, Faried, Parsons, Isaiah Thomas? The top of the top is usually better I will give you that, but the guys in the 2nd/3rd tier are a much bigger shot that you are leaving a more talented, but more experienced player on the board because younger is seen as almost automatically better.

I think the basic point is that in general those guys are simply being drafted early because of their talent. He isn't saying there aren't other guys that stay longer with talent.

Unlce off.

For more or less you leave when you can be a be 1st round pick. Bunn is an example of a kid that stayed an extra year. He would have been a 1st. Of the list above most of those guys were not top 5.

Uncle on.

bleedspeed177 wrote:Unlce off.

For more or less you leave when you can be a be 1st round pick. Bunn is an example of a kid that stayed an extra year. He would have been a 1st. Of the list above most of those guys were not top 5.

Uncle on.

So now he gets knocked on for wanting to get his degree and develop his game more than wanting the money right away? Whatever. Uncle on my end too.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/13877837/kris-dunn-journey-leads-back-providence-one-more-year