Minnesota Sports Forum

Can the Wolves get into the 76ers Noel sweepstakes? Would an offer of #5 and Shabazz for Noel and #24 and #26 get it done?

Go after Allen Crabbe and Kent Bazemore. Young talent mid level contracts.

While many of us admire Shabazz's consistent effort on the court, I think we tend to overestimate his trade value. Bazz hasn't shown enough consistency or versatility to demonstrate he can be a reliable rotation player on a good team. I don't think there are any GM's that would be willing to give us a first round pick for him, and think his value is more likely a second round pick. I still want to see if Bazz can ever develop a defensive game or learn to pass (although I'm skeptical after 3 years), so I would not be inclined to move him for a second round pick.

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:Anybody else think the length of this thread is getting ridiculous and it might be better to start using multiple threads on more specific aspects of the draft? It's tough to find certain parts of such a long thread, and it feels like discussion topics don't get developed enough because it's like there's two or three conversations going on at any given time.

Yes.

Some of the guys being discussed in this thread are going to bust, most likely 2-3 of the top 7 we keep talking about. The key is to not select one of those players. I'd rank the high floor guys like this:

1) Simmons
2) Hield
3) Dunn
4) Ingram
5) Murray
6) Bender
7) Chriss

Keep in mind this is not the order I would take these guys, far from it. But if you want to make sure you get something in return for your asset, Thibs might be wise to consider Floor when making our pick.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Some of the guys being discussed in this thread are going to bust, most likely 2-3 of the top 7 we keep talking about. The key is to not select one of those players. I'd rank the high floor guys like this:

1) Simmons
2) Hield
3) Dunn
4) Ingram
5) Murray
6) Bender
7) Chriss

Keep in mind this is not the order I would take these guys, far from it. But if you want to make sure you get something in return for your asset, Thibs might be wise to consider Floor when making or pick.

I'd hope a coach would never pick based on floor and pick based on who they think they can coach to be the best player.

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Some of the guys being discussed in this thread are going to bust, most likely 2-3 of the top 7 we keep talking about. The key is to not select one of those players. I'd rank the high floor guys like this:

1) Simmons
2) Hield
3) Dunn
4) Ingram
5) Murray
6) Bender
7) Chriss

Keep in mind this is not the order I would take these guys, far from it. But if you want to make sure you get something in return for your asset, Thibs might be wise to consider Floor when making or pick.

I'd hope a coach would never pick based on floor and pick based on who they think they can coach to be the best player.

Didn't say you base it on floor, just that you consider it. If you have Hield and Murray ranked pretty even, it might be a good tiebreaker.

TheFuture wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Also I have a bit of a rant on Chad Ford. He suggests that Boston might take Dunn and move another guy and he actually said they may move Thomas. I'm no insider but I would put the chance of that at about ZERO. No way is Boston trading Thomas because they just picked some 22 year old draft pick. No way

Ford seems to be completely enamored with Dunn as a true PG. That seems like a stretch to me. The guy can pass but I don't think the guy is a passing PG in that it's an overwhelming strength like Ford claims. I've been skeptical of Dunn as a prospect for months. I like him I am just not enamored with him and don't see him as something closer to can't miss star type that some hype him as being.

Why wouldn't Dunn be considered a true PG? You're knocking his passing, but it definitely is a strength. Watch some full game tape on him, not just the highlights as those tend to be him scoring/getting to the rim. A PG who passes well, rebounds great, plays tremendous defense, and can score at the rim or from the 3pt line sounds exactly like a true PG to me. Go look at his numbers and those of his teammates. Many of those 2pt% and 3pt% are very low, with not a single 3pt shooter averaging better than dunns 37%.

You make some good points about teammates. Just to be clear I watched a couple games of Dunn I wasn't overwhelmingly impressed with his true PG skills. I am not saying Dunn isn't a good passer just I'm not saying he is a no brainier true PG (that term is very subjective) like Ford goes on and on about.

Maybe I'll put it like this. To me is see Dunn isn't just a scoring PG the guy can pass and he is clearly unselfish and that's worth noting. If the guy can get to the rim and finding plus hit a respectable rate of his outside shots to me he seems like he has plenty of passing skills for the position which that combo is why some people really really like him. His upside isn't as much tied to his passing it's much much more about his strength quickness combo to get to the basket and his potential on defense.

Overall I still find myself being skeptical of his overall game translating to being a really good player. That's my take I won't have a problem with being wrong no matter what he ends up on. I'm not a hater of the guy just find myself being skeptical.

longstrangetrip wrote:While many of us admire Shabazz's consistent effort on the court, I think we tend to overestimate his trade value. Bazz hasn't shown enough consistency or versatility to demonstrate he can be a reliable rotation player on a good team. I don't think there are any GM's that would be willing to give us a first round pick for him, and think his value is more likely a second round pick. I still want to see if Bazz can ever develop a defensive game or learn to pass (although I'm skeptical after 3 years), so I would not be inclined to move him for a second round pick.

I disagree. Teams have been reported to be interested in Bazz for what 2 years? Is the price really that low now? The guy can score and do it in a unique way and turns 24 in November. He has played for 3 different head coaches. There are gonna be teams that think they can do something with that guy that's worth at least a late 1st round pick.

Yeah I'm not giving up Bazz for a 2nd round pick either. Also he was a key player for a team that was close to .500 down the stretch so...doesn't that mean something? What about the game where he put up 35 points and defended Draymond Green down the stretch? Nope nobody wants that guy. I was just reading back though some of the draft thread and it wasn't that long ago Dieng was a guy a number of people were willing to deal before Bazz. Dieng ended up playing well and now is a guy pretty much everyone wants to keep in one way or another. A few months from now we could be easily saying this same stuff about Bazz. This isn't some guy that's done nothing in the league and so there is some blind hope he will magically do something. He has actually had some productive aspect of his game. I think there should be a little more patience for the guy even though I know the contract situation make the clock ticking on him.

Sorry I got a little fired up there.

monsterpile wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:While many of us admire Shabazz's consistent effort on the court, I think we tend to overestimate his trade value. Bazz hasn't shown enough consistency or versatility to demonstrate he can be a reliable rotation player on a good team. I don't think there are any GM's that would be willing to give us a first round pick for him, and think his value is more likely a second round pick. I still want to see if Bazz can ever develop a defensive game or learn to pass (although I'm skeptical after 3 years), so I would not be inclined to move him for a second round pick.

I disagree. Teams have been reported to be interested in Bazz for what 2 years? Is the price really that low now? The guy can score and do it in a unique way and turns 24 in November. He has played for 3 different head coaches. There are gonna be teams that think they can do something with that guy that's worth at least a late 1st round pick.

Yeah I'm not giving up Bazz for a 2nd round pick either. Also he was a key player for a team that was close to .500 down the stretch so...doesn't that mean something? What about the game where he put up 35 points and defended Draymond Green down the stretch? Nope nobody wants that guy. I was just reading back though some of the draft thread and it wasn't that long ago Dieng was a guy a number of people were willing to deal before Bazz. Dieng ended up playing well and now is a guy pretty much everyone wants to keep in one way or another. A few months from now we could be easily saying this same stuff about Bazz. This isn't some guy that's done nothing in the league and so there is some blind hope he will magically do something. He has actually had some productive aspect of his game. I think there should be a little more patience for the guy even though I know the contract situation make the clock ticking on him.

Sorry I got a little fired up there.

I hope you're right, monster, because I have always been a fan of Muhammad. I just think there are too many holes in his game for a team to give up a first round pick (I'd take it if offered though). His strengths are well known...he's a terrific volume scorer at times, and almost always a relentless offensive rebounder. But after 3 years in the league, his weaknesses outweigh his strengths. His statistics in defensive rebounding, assists, 3-point shooting, and almost all defensive measures put him in the lower half of the league's small forwards. I don't think he is a selfish player, even when he attacks the basket 1 on 3...I just think he doesn't have a feel for the team aspect of basketball, either offensively or defensively. I always pull for the guy, but I just haven't seem the lightbulb go on in three years, and I really think Bazz is essentially what he is going to be.

You're right that Doogie has mentioned a few times that several teams have indicated an interest in Bazz, but we don't know what they have offered. Whatever the offers were, they weren't substantial enough for Milt to pull the trigger. He is a scorer, though, so maybe a team like Boston or Philly with multiple first round picks might offer one for Bazz. There are several players I like in the 20s, so I would be inclined to accept an offer for pick 23, 24 or 26.

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:While many of us admire Shabazz's consistent effort on the court, I think we tend to overestimate his trade value. Bazz hasn't shown enough consistency or versatility to demonstrate he can be a reliable rotation player on a good team. I don't think there are any GM's that would be willing to give us a first round pick for him, and think his value is more likely a second round pick. I still want to see if Bazz can ever develop a defensive game or learn to pass (although I'm skeptical after 3 years), so I would not be inclined to move him for a second round pick.

I disagree. Teams have been reported to be interested in Bazz for what 2 years? Is the price really that low now? The guy can score and do it in a unique way and turns 24 in November. He has played for 3 different head coaches. There are gonna be teams that think they can do something with that guy that's worth at least a late 1st round pick.

Yeah I'm not giving up Bazz for a 2nd round pick either. Also he was a key player for a team that was close to .500 down the stretch so...doesn't that mean something? What about the game where he put up 35 points and defended Draymond Green down the stretch? Nope nobody wants that guy. I was just reading back though some of the draft thread and it wasn't that long ago Dieng was a guy a number of people were willing to deal before Bazz. Dieng ended up playing well and now is a guy pretty much everyone wants to keep in one way or another. A few months from now we could be easily saying this same stuff about Bazz. This isn't some guy that's done nothing in the league and so there is some blind hope he will magically do something. He has actually had some productive aspect of his game. I think there should be a little more patience for the guy even though I know the contract situation make the clock ticking on him.

Sorry I got a little fired up there.

I hope you're right, monster, because I have always been a fan of Muhammad. I just think there are too many holes in his game for a team to give up a first round pick (I'd take it if offered though). His strengths are well known...he's a terrific volume scorer at times, and almost always a relentless offensive rebounder. But after 3 years in the league, his weaknesses outweigh his strengths. His statistics in defensive rebounding, assists, 3-point shooting, and almost all defensive measures put him in the lower half of the league's small forwards. I don't think he is a selfish player, even when he attacks the basket 1 on 3...I just think he doesn't have a feel for the team aspect of basketball, either offensively or defensively. I always pull for the guy, but I just haven't seem the lightbulb go on in three years, and I really think Bazz is essentially what he is going to be.

You're right that Doogie has mentioned a few times that several teams have indicated an interest in Bazz, but we don't know what they have offered. Whatever the offers were, they weren't substantial enough for Milt to pull the trigger. He is a scorer, though, so maybe a team like Boston or Philly with multiple first round picks might offer one for Bazz. There are several players I like in the 20s, so I would be inclined to accept an offer for pick 23, 24 or 26.

Flip and Milt have both mentioned teams have had interest in Bazz so that's my sources. :)

"Bazz is essentially what he is going to be."

I'd like to think a smart coach would figure out how to utilize a guy that scores around the basket AND the last 2 years has hit over 40% of his corner 3's and plays hard. In the last podcast Jon K and Souhan talked about the Love for Klay deal that was likely never on the table but Flip wanted him and felt like he could be a much better player. Jon said many people around the league said Klay was not enough for to be a headliner for Love and that turned out not to be try and quite frankly back then I was pretty high on Klay actually. Jon made the point that so many people seem to want to say this guy is who he is at 22 or 23 and that's just not really fair as they are really in many ways just getting started with their careers.

I'm not suggesting Bazz is going to magically become a good ball handler and a playmaking wing or lock down defender or good shooter or something but the idea he can't find himself within his skill set (or make some improvement to some extent) seems somewhat of a lack of patience. I say that especially when there was some actual process of growth the last 20-30 games last year of him moving the ball and some better awareness on defense.

This is why we hired a coach and basketball guy like Thibs to get the best out of players. Who would be shocked if Bazz went to Dallas and instantly became a valuable rotation guy? Not me. We may have a coach we expect guys to be good under. Bazz isn't some Payne Bennett lost soul the guy has abilities in this league. I can't helped but find it a little frustrating when he is basically just dismissed as he is who he is.
I just think it's wrong to basically just give up on a near 24 year old guy getting any better especially before he has a shot at playing for a top level coach ESPECIALLY on the defensive end.

A low 1st rounder isn't exactly giving up on Bazz especially considering at some point you have to decide what to do with him with his rookie deal being up. I don't know if that's really a route that ends up making sense for a team looking to make the playoffs getting younger instead of keeping a guy about to turn 24 going into his 4th year. Bazz seems like a high price to pay when picks in that range you talked about have basically been bought in the past at least once from the Wolves. Has Bazz been that disappointing that you deal him for a pick around 10 picks lower than where he was drafted?

Man I don't know why this hit such a nerve today but it's probably because I feel like Bazz just gets thrown around like whatever and I think the guy has done enough in his career to deserve someone defending the guy as a worthwhile player. Where is Jason to help me out? Lol