Minnesota Sports Forum

Camden wrote:

Carlos Danger wrote:

Camden wrote:Not the same thing. I would have stood by Rubio even without the "hot" shooting to end the season because of all the other things he does really well. There's years of evidence on that, not just 36 games. I wouldn't let 36 games alter my decision making when you could get an All-Star player that fits perfectly with the rest of the team. That's super risky, IMO.

And you have to realize that that starting lineup that included Dieng was awful defensively, and not effective against teams with bigger frontcourts or teams that had a play-making PF. Dieng was unplayable against Golden State when we beat them. Horford/Towns would be really hard to stop, but still be able to match up with any frontcourt in the league. That's ideal.

Per 36 figures of Horford and Dieng against Golden State this past season:
Dieng: 16.2 points, 8.9 rebounds and +2.8 rating
Horford: 17.7 points, 11.1 rebounds and -6.6 rating

So, we're comparing a guy who played 17, 19, and 27 minutes against a player who logged 39 and 42 minutes? Per 36 traditionally favors the player with significantly lesser minutes because it extrapolates their per minute production into numbers they didn't actually produce, which is likely why you used it.

Dieng started twice against GS. In one game, he shot 2-7 from the field and had 7 boards, yet he was +11. In the game we won against GS, he was 5-8 from the field with 5 boards, but had to be benched for a large part of the game because he couldn't stick with Green on the perimeter nor could he body Bogut. He was a -15. This isn't the only time Dieng's been pulled because he just couldn't match up with the opposition. Thankfully, Bjelica played much better to end the season and he was a good option to turn to when this happened.

I used "Per 36" because Hortford played 40 minutes/game which is very unusual and inflates his overall numbers on a per game basis (how often do players play 40 minutes in a game?). Per 36 is the easiest way to calibrate two players with disproportionate minutes. It is what it is. Dieng was an overall positive against GS and Hortford was a negative. Both are tiny samples - so nobody should read too much it.

The game you reference where "Dieng got pulled" I recall as us going small with Bazz at PF and scoring 35 points. I wouldn't read too much into that either. They ran with the hot line up/hand. It happens. Dieng had a very good season and has a long enough track record that you certainly should be looking at his whole body of work vs. one game.

Camden wrote:

TheFuture wrote:When thinking of paying Horford near $30mil I look forward to our roster next year, and compare it to what it would look like with 3 quality depth signings.

Rubio/LaVine/Wiggins/Towns/Horford
Jones/shabazz/Prince/Bjelicia/Dieng

or

Paying a group of 3 guys $30mil.
You could pick any 3 of Delladova, Mahinmi, Marjonavic, Ezeli, Fournier, Courtney Lee, Jordan Hill, Crabbe, even Deng, and come away spending $30mil.

Rubio/LaVine/Wiggins/Dieng/Towns
Delladova/ Lee or Crabbe or Fournier /Shabazz/Bjelicia/ Ezeli or Marjonavic.

I think it's quite obvious which roster provides talent at every position.

I'll take the first team. I also think it's a bit unfair you listed players that are really unlikely to come here to play off the bench, such as: Ezeli, Dellavedova, Crabbe and Fournier. Couple of those guys are RFA too. Good luck.

Ezeli is totally dependent on what GS decides to do with Barnes. If they choose barnes, Ezeli can be had, if they let barnes go, they're paying ezeli.
Delly can get paid plenty more elsewhere than he will in Cleveland. Crabbe the blazers likely keep. As stated before, Fournier is on the outside looking in for the Magic.

Even if you want to write all 4 of those guys off, I'd still take Marjonavic, Lee, and Mahinmi over Horford.

Please explain to me why you believe we're better off with 6-7 Quality NBA players instead of 9-10. OKC, and GS are deep and make it deep into the playoffs (I'm not counting the Spurs because of the stars taking the big paycuts). Then look at a team like the Clippers who have had about 6 very good to great players for 5ish years and have done nothing.

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:I would not be opposed at all at kicking the tires on Durant. My God, are you kidding me!? That would rank right up there with KAT and Thibs, if not higher, in terms of awesome things this franchise has done in the past year.

However....guess whose career trajectory gets a stiff arm on that move? Andrew Wiggins. Frankly, I'd be shopping Wiggins for an upgrade somewhere else on the roster if we landed Durant. Not because I don't like Wiggins, simply because his full value as a player would not be fulfilled with Durant added to the team. He needs to go to a place where he is either the 1A or 1B scorer.

Wiggins starts at the 2 where he has a huge advantage, and with KD, Wig, and Zach we have by far the best wing rotation in the league. No reason to trade Wig because he might get a few less shots.

I hear you, but let's think about this from his agent's perspective. Now suddenly it's all about KAT and Durant. Wiggins becomes a 3rd or 4th wheel in that scenario along with LaVine. Yes, these guys are good team players and want to win, but they are still on their rookie contracts and trying to establish themselves in the league. If we add Durant, one or both of these guys would be unhappy in my opinion and likely request a trade. It's too many guys whose greatest strength is scoring. Wiggins isn't an Iggy, Marion, Pippen, Draymond jack-of-all trades type of player that can fill in all the gaps around multiple scorers. He needs to be one of those scorers. Same with LaVine. Same with Shabazz.

Not yet

Well, I don't see him bringing the ball up the court as a point forward and facilitating an offense, ala Draymond, Iggy, or Pippen. Nor do I see him suddenly grabbing 10+ boards and getting blocks and steals all over the place like Marion. Perhaps you are still holding out hope for these things. I view him as potentially an elite scorer and great individual defender. He's just spent the last two years as our crunch time go-to guy. Now you think he'll take a back seat to Durant and KAT and be pleased about it?

I think you're manufacturing things to worry about. If Kevin Durant wants to come here, you say yes. Duane Wade and Lebron found a way to co-exist on the Heat. When Durant's contract ends, Wig will be what, 26? Just entering his prime and ready to lead the franchise for another 8 years. All the while thanking KD for the rings he already has.

Oh, I have no problem with the idea of making a run at Durant. What I'm suggesting is that if we do that, there will likely be downstream implications. If Wiggins/LaVine were totally cool with it, fine, we can keep them and try to make Wiggins into a 3 & D specialist and LaVine a 6th man. But It wouldn't be the ideal use of those assets (especially Wiggins) and it wouldn't be easy getting them or their agents to buy into it, thus a trade of one or the other would probably ensue.

I fail to see the connection you're making. If Durant - Wig has to become a 3 and D specialist. It just doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not going to argue that sacrifices don't have to be made. Kevin Love went from a 26/13 guy to a 16/10 one to have a chance at a title. Wiggins is going to be a max guy no matter what. He also is a pretty unselfish player, yet I still don't see why he can't put up big numbers if Durant is on the team.

Isn't Wiggins known as a passive player who defers to others unless forced to take over? Maybe an Ultra Alpha Dog like Durant would fit perfectly with the Pups. Heck, they all probably idolize KD already.

TheFuture wrote:

Camden wrote:

TheFuture wrote:When thinking of paying Horford near $30mil I look forward to our roster next year, and compare it to what it would look like with 3 quality depth signings.

Rubio/LaVine/Wiggins/Towns/Horford
Jones/shabazz/Prince/Bjelicia/Dieng

or

Paying a group of 3 guys $30mil.
You could pick any 3 of Delladova, Mahinmi, Marjonavic, Ezeli, Fournier, Courtney Lee, Jordan Hill, Crabbe, even Deng, and come away spending $30mil.

Rubio/LaVine/Wiggins/Dieng/Towns
Delladova/ Lee or Crabbe or Fournier /Shabazz/Bjelicia/ Ezeli or Marjonavic.

I think it's quite obvious which roster provides talent at every position.

I'll take the first team. I also think it's a bit unfair you listed players that are really unlikely to come here to play off the bench, such as: Ezeli, Dellavedova, Crabbe and Fournier. Couple of those guys are RFA too. Good luck.

Ezeli is totally dependent on what GS decides to do with Barnes. If they choose barnes, Ezeli can be had, if they let barnes go, they're paying ezeli.
Delly can get paid plenty more elsewhere than he will in Cleveland. Crabbe the blazers likely keep. As stated before, Fournier is on the outside looking in for the Magic.

Even if you want to write all 4 of those guys off, I'd still take Marjonavic, Lee, and Mahinmi over Horford.

Please explain to me why you believe we're better off with 6-7 Quality NBA players instead of 9-10. OKC, and GS are deep and make it deep into the playoffs (I'm not counting the Spurs because of the stars taking the big paycuts). Then look at a team like the Clippers who have had about 6 very good to great players for 5ish years and have done nothing.

Ezeli's in a situation that Dieng will be in after next year. Really, really good big off the bench and a possible starter. Teams will have to pay up to get him and still might not land him. Same thing for Crabbe. Delly could leave, but we'd have to overpay to get him, and I don't know about you, but I'm done with this team overpaying for backup point guards. Fournier would be a good get, but I'd imagine he wants to start. He won't have a chance to do that here, and I do believe the Magic want him back. I think he's a reason why Orlando dealt Harris. So, yeah, I think all of them would be tough gets, and would probably give us the most expensive bench in the NBA.

I just know that getting your starting five as strong as possible is never a bad thing. They play 75% of the game. When that's in place, and you get results, veterans and players around the league take notice and are more likely to flock to that to join in playoff basketball in the future.

As far as next year, add a cheap backup point guard (I continue to say Ronnie Price) and see about bringing Prince back for the minimum. Price/Jones, Muhammad, Bjelica, Dieng, potentially our top-five draft pick, and perhaps Prince. I feel more confident about that group knowing our starting five would be ridiculously good.

While I'm not in favor of giving out a max contract this summer for reasons I've already laid out (makes it impossible to sign our 3 young guys after their rookie contracts are over without gong into lux tax), but I would make an exception for the two players in this year's crop who are head and shoulders above the others...Durant and LBJ. Now, most don't think James is leaving Cleveland again...too worried about his image. But never underestimate what a guy might do to get away from that pain in the ass playing PF for the Cavs. I think the Wolves would win a few championships the next 4 years if they were able to sign James, so I would be disappointed if Leydon didn't at least have a conversation with his agent. But he's probably not going anywhere.

But Durant is a different story. He has to know it's unlikely he will ever win a championship in OkC and there's nothing inherently appealing about living there, so I think he will probably leave this summer. He has indicated he doesn't want to go home to DC. So I would imagine he will be most interested in the team with max cap space that has the best chance of winning a championship, or championships, soon. Earlier in this thread I asked for teams that meet the criteria, and the only teams that came up were Boston and the Wolves. So, I'm trying to understand why some posters have assessed the likelihood of Durant ever wanting to come here as remote. It seems to me that a max contract, the best young core in the league, and a coach who was widely regarded as the best available coach, wouldn't be an attractive sales pitch. Further, he's familiar with the city because of his prior romance with Monica Wright, and the Wolves seem to have a lot of guys who are genuinely good guys to hang with. I think we have as good a pitch as anyone.

Any max contract is going to handcuff us when it comes time to pay our young guys, but that's a chance I'm willing to take for either Durant or James. But as steady an all-star as Horford has been, he's showing again tonight why a max contract for him is not good value (he's having his third consecutive poor playoff game...currently scoreless late in the first half on 0-8 shooting).

I feel like I need to stick up for Gorgi, Horford can't even get on the court verses the Celtics.

Duke13 wrote:I feel like I need to stick up for Gorgi, Horford can't even get on the court verses the Celtics.

I'm not watching, but I just saw the box score. How does he look? Is there a chance he's hurt, because his stats have been way under his norm for three straight games.

I'm a little confused by all this Durant talk this offseason. If he is smart he signs a 1+1 player option to truly max his earnings on his next big contract. Then he would be a UFA with Westbrook next year and they can go wherever they want if okc can't get it done. Given how loyal a guy he is, I don't think he'll scoff at giving okc one more year.

My question now is, would we be able to hold off spending money this year, then trying to run at them both next year? I can't check the money now, but one is doable. Two maybe if we can shop peks contract and get assets for bazz and dieng. Possibly Rubio.

I love Rubio, but if that math works and you think you can pitch them for real, you'd have westbrook, Lavine, wiggins, Durant, towns.

Pie in the sky no doubt. But I think if you make a run at those two next year you're not going to be disappointed by your financial flexibility if you fail.

He's never been a player who's athleticism jumps out at you but he looks slow to me. He's always kinda been an underwhelming player, does nothing great but most things well.