Yosimar wrote:I've been away from this board for a few years now, just lurk at this point but had to post after this game.
The amount of Wiggins talk/hate is absolutely insane to me. This is on Thibs for allowing all of this to take place. The offense that last quarter became Jimmy Butler, no way that should happen when you have talents like Towns and Wiggins out there. While it might have been fun for some to watch Jimmy and Zach jack up shots back and forth I couldn't believe some of the things that happened in this game. The most insane thing to me was not having Wiggins on Zach defensively in the 4th quarter. Now I get it, Butler is known for his defense and one of the many things people have bitched about when it comes to the short comings of Wiggins is how he's not a better defender when everything says he should be. But in this game, Wiggins when one on one vs. Zach, did pretty damn well especially early in the game. Even blocking him, when Zach decided to get on his horse. It was obvious that going up against Wiggins was much harder for Levine and it makes sense. Jimmy may be a great defender but Zach is on another level when it comes to his athleticism. One of the few guys in the NBA that can match that athleticism is Andrew, who's taller than he is and can jump just as high. Instead whether it was the coaches call or Jimmy's himself all we saw was Jimmy one on one vs Zach. Zach being quicker and longer meant he could pretty much get his shot of whenever he wanted. Wiggins on him defensively believe it or not was the better match up. Who once again with his length and athleticism makes Zach's job to even get a shot off harder. Not only would that defensive match up helped us in getting some stops, it would've allowed Jimmy to stay fresher for when he decided to handle the ball for 20 seconds on offense and taken whatever shot he decided to take.
That was absolutely awful. The announcer at one point in the game mentioned how Zach avg. 19 PPG last season without getting anything drawn up for him because those plays went to KAT and Wiggins and it worked because Zach's game is such that he can still be a factor without having anything drawn for him, basically his awesome shooting. This year it feels like all the plays are basically being drawn for Jimmy and KAT and Wiggins are left to get theirs in whatever way they can. Most notably hampering Wiggins. Wiggins is not and I don't think will ever be a great or even good shooter, decent at best. The guy needs the ball in his hands, penetrating, slashing getting to the line and from time to time knocking down some jumpers. I'm hoping with a season under their belt playing together they can figure this out and better balance all 3 handling and touching the ball and distributing things better. Because this team becomes insanely predictable in the 4th quarter with Wiggins maybe getting a play for himself when Jimmy basically needs to take a possession off from handling the ball because he needs a rest while on the floor.
I though Wiggins actually played a good game, efficient shooting, and played Zach very well defensively when they were matched up. We just got away from him and Towns because the "alpha male" got a little too carried away and the coach allows it. It basically became a 1 v 1 game in the 4th which made things easier for them, if we knew how to use our 3 stars it would've been an easy win.
Yeah, good luck finding anyone that would agree with the idea that Jimmy Butler shouldn't be guarding the opposition's best perimeter scorer, especially when Butler himself holds the physical advantage -- you apparently forgot that Butler was 6'8. That's quite the reach, Yosimar, in an otherwise fair post.
Andrew Wiggins is coming around on the defensive end, but there's a reason Butler's a three-time addition to the NBA All-Defensive team. He's elite. We'd be crucifying Thibodeau for not putting his best wing defender on LaVine in crucial moments. And the funny/ironic thing about this entire thread is that if not for a silly touch of the elbow from Butler, essentially fouling LaVine from behind the three-point line, we're not even talking like this. We're probably calling this a gritty win and it's nice to see a healthy LaVine, etc.
It doesn't happen often, but Butler got caught reaching in the cookie jar. That doesn't mean it was the wrong move from a coach's perspective. Play your best against their best. We did that.
In the end we might regret not trading Wiggins instead of Lavine. I like both players a lot, and I think they both will be very solid NBA players. But it is so hard to compare how player X would do than player Y in certain situations. Now if Lavine was on this team instead of Wiggins, he would be the third option and how would he do if he was asked to stand in the corner like Wiggins is. We are looking at different roles, Lavine on the Bulls is asked to do almost everything for them down the clutch and damn was he good tonight and good for him.
Like everyone else has said we need to run shit in the last 5 minutes of the game, I am fine with Jimmy taking the shots but lets run him off screens, lets post him up, lets get more ball movement so teams can't load up on him like they did tonight leaving Tyus open and one possession where they left Wiggins wide open and Wiggins missed the open 3.
I don't think we are far off being a really good team, but we have some pretty bad late game execution and I think that is fixable. Like even tonight we had a wide open 3 by our best 3 point shooter and he missed it. I will take that shot 10 out of 10 times.
Don't you think with Lavine's handle Thibs would use him more rather than a diet of 100% Butler late in close games? Lavine can get where he wants and still possess the ball once he gets there unlike every Wolves player not named Butler!
I thought it was idiotic last season when Thibs would put the ball in Wiggins hands to run the half-court offense when he had LaVine, who has always been a MUCH better ball-handler and shooter than Wiggins. That's an indictment of Thibs as head coach. Trading LaVine instead of Wiggins and giving up more assets in the process is an indictment of Thibs PBO.
Who was the better head coach tonight, Thibs or Fred?
I am just saying, if we make that trade Wiggins instead of Lavine, we might not be in the playoffs right now, with Lavine coming off an ACL injury. I am not going to blame Thibs for not taking that risk.
In the end we still dont know. Mad props to Zach though, still one of my favorite players in the League.
Trading Wiggins rather than LaVine would have allowed us to keep Dunn. That, in turn, would have allowed us to put the $19 million used on Teague to better use. We might not be 4th place now, but I think we'd be in playoff contention and Zach's return would have solidified our hold on a playoff seed. All conjecture I know. But I've always thought Zach was the better prospect. He's always been a much better 3-point shooter and free throw shooter. He's also always been a much better ball-handler, which is so critical to being a good NBA wing. So the fact that we could have traded the inferior player (Wiggins) while giving up fewer other assets to get Butler tells me that Thibs should have dealt Wiggins instead.
I'm just not impressed with Thibs as PBO. He hasn't done anything insanely stupid. But he hasn't done the really smart things that you see from the best organizations.
Lip, this board would of exploded if Dunn entered the year as our starting PG. I thought Tibs should of turned Dunn loose last year instead of pulling he every time he made a mistake, which was a lot I know. But he killed his value last year. Dunn ever said it in an interview, he felt the pressure, and didn't play well because of it.
Duke - I agree with you that many on this Board would have gone nuts with Dunn as our starting PG to begin the season. But I and some others would have been ok with it knowing that Butler would be on the court with him. And I think this Board would have calmed down pretty quickly. Butler's presence and Dunn's improvement, along with the acquisition of another good player using Teague's $19 million and the emergence of Tyus would have have been good enough for this team to take a big step forward this season, even if not as big a step as the one they've already taken. To be honest, I'm not sure I would have been comfortable starting the season with Dunn and Tyus, which is why I probably would have used $10 million to sign Collison and the other $9 million to sign CJ Miles or someone comparable.
The longer-term view in my mind always had LaVine as a better prospect than Wiggins -- understanding that there are arguments on the other side. But for me, comparing two tremendous athletes at the wing position in the NBA, I'll take the one with a good handle and excellent reliable 3-point shooting over the one with a truly poor handle and unreliable 3-point accuracy. Wiggins' size advantage just isn't' enough to elevate him above LaVine as a prospect given disparity between the two as ball handlers and perimeter shooters. And that's before you even compare their competitiveness. The only thing that would have given me pause about swapping Wiggins instead of LaVine was the knee injury. But that's a risk I would have taken.
I admit to a pro-LaVine bias that dates back to my lunch with Flip when he confided in me 10 days before the draft that he was going take LaVine if available. I already had my eye on LaVine at the time and Flip got me even more excited about him as he explained why he wanted to pick him. After seeing him play here my only doubts about him related to the defensive side of the ball. But those defensive doubts properly applied to every player on the Wolves the past few seasons.
If Jimmy's 6'8 then I'm 6'0 dammit (5'10). Maybe with his hairstyle he's that tall. Anyways not here to argue inches. I know Jimmy's defensive accolades. There's different types of Athletic beast out there, and some people just match up better with others. For example I think a guy like Lebron is a better match-up for Jimmy than a guy like Lavine. Zach is a tall and lanky 2 guard who first step is like no other likes to use his speed and quickness as well as being able to jump out the building to beat guys whether it's getting to the rack or getting off his 3 point shot. Who on our team is tall and lanky, has speed and can jump out of the building? It's Andrew. Lavine looked a lot more comfy with the former of the two on him. Nobody has to agree. Just my two cents.
I'm crucifying Thibs for dumming down the offense especially late and making this team incredibly predictable.
My hope is that these 3 guys find a way to work well together and it not just be one guy dominating while the other two sit back. Every team that has had their own version of a super team has needed time to gel. This is our version right now, I'm just not sure Thibs is the best coach to make/allow that to happen.
This game was about jimmy vs the bulls on center stage. Jimmy didnt care about anything other than that tonight.
It was embarrassing watching him the take off before kat even came to set the screen. And it wasnt just once.
Kat was ignored and wiggins was ignored. Wiggs also had lavine on lockdown and should never have been taken off him in the first place.
I love what jimmy does for this team, but iso jimmy every play in the 4th isnt gong to cut it. Thibs might as well tell the other 4 guys to stay back to prevent a fast break.
Yosimar wrote:I've been away from this board for a few years now, just lurk at this point but had to post after this game.
The amount of Wiggins talk/hate is absolutely insane to me. This is on Thibs for allowing all of this to take place. The offense that last quarter became Jimmy Butler, no way that should happen when you have talents like Towns and Wiggins out there. While it might have been fun for some to watch Jimmy and Zach jack up shots back and forth I couldn't believe some of the things that happened in this game. The most insane thing to me was not having Wiggins on Zach defensively in the 4th quarter. Now I get it, Butler is known for his defense and one of the many things people have bitched about when it comes to the short comings of Wiggins is how he's not a better defender when everything says he should be. But in this game, Wiggins when one on one vs. Zach, did pretty damn well especially early in the game. Even blocking him, when Zach decided to get on his horse. It was obvious that going up against Wiggins was much harder for Levine and it makes sense. Jimmy may be a great defender but Zach is on another level when it comes to his athleticism. One of the few guys in the NBA that can match that athleticism is Andrew, who's taller than he is and can jump just as high. Instead whether it was the coaches call or Jimmy's himself all we saw was Jimmy one on one vs Zach. Zach being quicker and longer meant he could pretty much get his shot of whenever he wanted. Wiggins on him defensively believe it or not was the better match up. Who once again with his length and athleticism makes Zach's job to even get a shot off harder. Not only would that defensive match up helped us in getting some stops, it would've allowed Jimmy to stay fresher for when he decided to handle the ball for 20 seconds on offense and taken whatever shot he decided to take.
That was absolutely awful. The announcer at one point in the game mentioned how Zach avg. 19 PPG last season without getting anything drawn up for him because those plays went to KAT and Wiggins and it worked because Zach's game is such that he can still be a factor without having anything drawn for him, basically his awesome shooting. This year it feels like all the plays are basically being drawn for Jimmy and KAT and Wiggins are left to get theirs in whatever way they can. Most notably hampering Wiggins. Wiggins is not and I don't think will ever be a great or even good shooter, decent at best. The guy needs the ball in his hands, penetrating, slashing getting to the line and from time to time knocking down some jumpers. I'm hoping with a season under their belt playing together they can figure this out and better balance all 3 handling and touching the ball and distributing things better. Because this team becomes insanely predictable in the 4th quarter with Wiggins maybe getting a play for himself when Jimmy basically needs to take a possession off from handling the ball because he needs a rest while on the floor.
I though Wiggins actually played a good game, efficient shooting, and played Zach very well defensively when they were matched up. We just got away from him and Towns because the "alpha male" got a little too carried away and the coach allows it. It basically became a 1 v 1 game in the 4th which made things easier for them, if we knew how to use our 3 stars it would've been an easy win.
Welcome back, and thank you.
Fully agreed.
Wiggs did not play a bad game.
Defensively, he was probably our best defender (which isnt saying much). Offensively, he was efficient, but not much he can do when your role is to stand in the corners in the 2h.
Just to be clear. I'm not torching Wiggins for this game. It's that he's taken a step back this season on 3P% and FT%. He's taken a small step forward on defense.
I was always of the mind that Zach was going to become a top 5 player in the league and that Wiggins would just be Wiggins.
I'm torching Thibs for proving my point. The game ended up being a 1 Vs 1 Zach vs Butler and Zach won. It's going to be scary how good he will be in 3-4 years because of his work ethic and competitiveness.
Wiggins will just be Wiggins, never sniffing his potential. That's my beef.
As far as the Stephs ankles vs Zachs ACL. Stephs had like several injuries and surgeries on them. It seems to be a worrisome type of consistent thing. An ACL is more of a freak thing that can happen to anyone. Most guys seem to get back close to 100% these days.
Yosimar wrote:I've been away from this board for a few years now, just lurk at this point but had to post after this game.
The amount of Wiggins talk/hate is absolutely insane to me. This is on Thibs for allowing all of this to take place. The offense that last quarter became Jimmy Butler, no way that should happen when you have talents like Towns and Wiggins out there. While it might have been fun for some to watch Jimmy and Zach jack up shots back and forth I couldn't believe some of the things that happened in this game. The most insane thing to me was not having Wiggins on Zach defensively in the 4th quarter. Now I get it, Butler is known for his defense and one of the many things people have bitched about when it comes to the short comings of Wiggins is how he's not a better defender when everything says he should be. But in this game, Wiggins when one on one vs. Zach, did pretty damn well especially early in the game. Even blocking him, when Zach decided to get on his horse. It was obvious that going up against Wiggins was much harder for Levine and it makes sense. Jimmy may be a great defender but Zach is on another level when it comes to his athleticism. One of the few guys in the NBA that can match that athleticism is Andrew, who's taller than he is and can jump just as high. Instead whether it was the coaches call or Jimmy's himself all we saw was Jimmy one on one vs Zach. Zach being quicker and longer meant he could pretty much get his shot of whenever he wanted. Wiggins on him defensively believe it or not was the better match up. Who once again with his length and athleticism makes Zach's job to even get a shot off harder. Not only would that defensive match up helped us in getting some stops, it would've allowed Jimmy to stay fresher for when he decided to handle the ball for 20 seconds on offense and taken whatever shot he decided to take.
That was absolutely awful. The announcer at one point in the game mentioned how Zach avg. 19 PPG last season without getting anything drawn up for him because those plays went to KAT and Wiggins and it worked because Zach's game is such that he can still be a factor without having anything drawn for him, basically his awesome shooting. This year it feels like all the plays are basically being drawn for Jimmy and KAT and Wiggins are left to get theirs in whatever way they can. Most notably hampering Wiggins. Wiggins is not and I don't think will ever be a great or even good shooter, decent at best. The guy needs the ball in his hands, penetrating, slashing getting to the line and from time to time knocking down some jumpers. I'm hoping with a season under their belt playing together they can figure this out and better balance all 3 handling and touching the ball and distributing things better. Because this team becomes insanely predictable in the 4th quarter with Wiggins maybe getting a play for himself when Jimmy basically needs to take a possession off from handling the ball because he needs a rest while on the floor.
I though Wiggins actually played a good game, efficient shooting, and played Zach very well defensively when they were matched up. We just got away from him and Towns because the "alpha male" got a little too carried away and the coach allows it. It basically became a 1 v 1 game in the 4th which made things easier for them, if we knew how to use our 3 stars it would've been an easy win.
Welcome back, and thank you.
Fully agreed.
Wiggs did not play a bad game.
Defensively, he was probably our best defender (which isnt saying much). Offensively, he was efficient, but not much he can do when your role is to stand in the corners in the 2h.
I agree that Wiggins didn't play a bad game. Of course, he didn't rise to the occasion with a particularly good game either, as he had zero trips to the line, no assists, no steals, only 4 rebounds and 5 turnovers. You're also right that he can't do much standing in the corners. So I still believe that Thibs does not make optimal use of Wiggins. To be fair, Wiggins' poor handle limits the role he can play out of the gate. That's probably the biggest reason he'll never be a great player. It's hard to be an effective wing in the NBA these days without a very good handle and Wiggins has a terrible one. We saw the way Zach picked Wiggins clean last night, prompting Wiggins to immediately foul him. I still can't fathom why Thibs still puts Wiggins in those positions where he's handling the ball around the perimeter. But Wiggins isn't a good spot-up 3-point shooter either. So it make no sense to repeatedly spot him up in the corners. Wiggins' strengths on the offensive end are slashing to the hole with only a couple dribbles and posting up. That's what Thibs should have him doing in 4th quarters.
Oh boy. For a night the anti Wiggins gang gets some rocket fuel for all their venom to spew out. Congratulations, have your day in the sun. Never mind that the announcing crew was marveling at how easy the game comes to Wiggins in the first half, when he was actually involved in Thibs offense. Never mind how Wiggins was winning the matchup when they were actually paired against each other. Never mind that Zach had all the motivation in the world to play great tonight. Never mind, and how soon you forget, that Zach is one of the worst defenders at his position in the league. And never mind that there will be other nights when these teams get together and play. But Dammit, Zach won the game last night for the Bulls and that's final confirmation that we traded the wrong guy. I wish the world was that simple. Nick Foles would be the best quarterback in the NFL and Chumbawamba would be known as the best band ever.
