Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:KAT was 4-14 in the first half and his immature tirade put us in a hole we couldnt climb out of. Then he got 7 points when the game was out of reach (down by 14 with 2 mins left) to pad his stats. Robson's article rightly points out that last nights game was a great example of KATs often empty calories in his stats not translating into winning. Celebrating KATs stat line last night doesnt vindicate his play in my mind.


Dlo is not the talent KAT is, but his years in the league, his salary, and him and KAT showing preference to eachother in offensive sets make them a package of our leadership. Dlo was hot garbage the last two game no doubt. But Its their roles as leaders together that get me. I get no sense of composure or professionalism from either them. It's all hipster rhetoric without proving anything. I believe both have the talent to be winners and want to see it. Whining like a baby and having JV live in your head is not how to get it. And for DLo, lazily moving around the court and casually jacking up 3s wont do it either. Players can grow up thankfully, I hope KAT and DLo do it.

OK, so KAT only had 25 points and 14 rebounds, 2 blocks, 2 steals and 7 assists before he started padding his stats with an extra 7 points. You're reaching a bit with that one, Doper. Most of his impressive stats were in the heat of competition when the game was on the line, and that includes his clutch 8-8 free-throw shooting. I don't like his whining either, but in my view he's not part of the problem. He's part of the solution. The problem is that we don't have the other parts except for Edwards and possible Beverley.

Otherwise, I do get where you're coming from about KAT. His immaturity is particularly bad given the fact that he's the team's best player. When your best player acts like a child, it hurts the team in a way that subtracts some of the value that player provides through his performance. We're MUCH better with him than without him, but we'd be better still if he would grow up. So honestly, I'm as frustrated by his immaturity after 6 years in the League as anyone on this Board. I'm just suggesting the need for a little more perspective. KAT's not a loser and we'd be much worse off without him. I agree he has to grow up and I wonder if he ever will. He also has to make quicker decisions with the ball. But the real key to this team getting to the playoffs will be whether there is anyone other than KAT and Edwards who can produce on a consistent basis. So far, no one else has even produced offensively, much less on a consistent basis. The good news is that everyone, including KAT and DLO are playing well defensively. So I'm not going to get too bent out of shape over last night's loss and a 2-1 record to start the season.

Totally agree that we are better with KAT. I just want him to grow in his leadership when he fails.

On my original point game was never on the line in the second half. KAT and Ant brought us to down 7 in the 3rd. That was as close as we got. Hardly an accomplishment in spite of Ant's magic in moment.

thedoper wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:KAT was 4-14 in the first half and his immature tirade put us in a hole we couldnt climb out of. Then he got 7 points when the game was out of reach (down by 14 with 2 mins left) to pad his stats. Robson's article rightly points out that last nights game was a great example of KATs often empty calories in his stats not translating into winning. Celebrating KATs stat line last night doesnt vindicate his play in my mind.


Dlo is not the talent KAT is, but his years in the league, his salary, and him and KAT showing preference to eachother in offensive sets make them a package of our leadership. Dlo was hot garbage the last two game no doubt. But Its their roles as leaders together that get me. I get no sense of composure or professionalism from either them. It's all hipster rhetoric without proving anything. I believe both have the talent to be winners and want to see it. Whining like a baby and having JV live in your head is not how to get it. And for DLo, lazily moving around the court and casually jacking up 3s wont do it either. Players can grow up thankfully, I hope KAT and DLo do it.

OK, so KAT only had 25 points and 14 rebounds, 2 blocks, 2 steals and 7 assists before he started padding his stats with an extra 7 points. You're reaching a bit with that one, Doper. Most of his impressive stats were in the heat of competition when the game was on the line, and that includes his clutch 8-8 free-throw shooting. I don't like his whining either, but in my view he's not part of the problem. He's part of the solution. The problem is that we don't have the other parts except for Edwards and possible Beverley.

Otherwise, I do get where you're coming from about KAT. His immaturity is particularly bad given the fact that he's the team's best player. When your best player acts like a child, it hurts the team in a way that subtracts some of the value that player provides through his performance. We're MUCH better with him than without him, but we'd be better still if he would grow up. So honestly, I'm as frustrated by his immaturity after 6 years in the League as anyone on this Board. I'm just suggesting the need for a little more perspective. KAT's not a loser and we'd be much worse off without him. I agree he has to grow up and I wonder if he ever will. He also has to make quicker decisions with the ball. But the real key to this team getting to the playoffs will be whether there is anyone other than KAT and Edwards who can produce on a consistent basis. So far, no one else has even produced offensively, much less on a consistent basis. The good news is that everyone, including KAT and DLO are playing well defensively. So I'm not going to get too bent out of shape over last night's loss and a 2-1 record to start the season.

Totally agree that we are better with KAT. I just want him to grow in his leadership when he fails.

On my original point game was never on the line in the second half. KAT and Ant brought us to down 7 in the 3rd. That was as close as we got. Hardly an accomplishment in spite of Ant's magic in moment.

Doper - I think we basically agree. I'll quibble a bit and remind you that the Wolves actually pulled to within 3 or 4 points in the 3rd quarter. The game really was up for grabs from that point well into the 4th before the Wolves faded. It felt at that point like the Wolves would win because you couldn't help but think that someone else -- DLO, Beasley, McDaniels -- would come to life and start scoring. But alas, no other player on the team did squat. And then the Wolves faded and KAT got his final 7 stat-padding points. The following was my favorite passage from Robson's article:

And when Anthony Edwards comes to the postgame podium and criticizes KAT, DLo and himself for lack of better ball movement and not getting their teammates involved, it would be wonderful to give KAT a break. Instead of thinking, man, Ant has better timing at age 20 on when to speak out in a leadership capacity than KAT has demonstrated for most of his career, it would be nice to think, I appreciate what he's doing, and DLo should be taking notes here, but six of KAT's team-leading seven dimes culminated in three-pointers, the first two went to McDaniels and Beverley and the last five helped glide the flightpath for Ant himself.

That says it all. The 19-year old second-year player sounds like an adult and the 25 year old 6 year vet continues to act out childish on-court dramas and is now watching gorilla movies for motivation. You can't make this stuff up. On the other hand, this paragraph from Robson's article notes that KAT led the team in assists and that six of his seven dimes culminated in three-pointers. That paragraph sums up KAT in a nutshell. A great player who delivers consistently on the court in many remarkable ways for a big, but who also can't get out of his own way and desperately needs to grow up. I don't know what it will take. I'm pleased to see KAT's defensive improvement. So we know the old dog after 6 seasons can still learn new tricks. But can he learn to grow up and show some level of self-awareness? I honestly don't know. Perhaps Finch will need to park him on the bench for a game at some point to deliver the message. We'll see. I'm glad KAT's on this team. But for him to become the player he should be, he'll have to become the adult he should be. And I still hope Ant can become our #1. Then I'll take KAT's productivity as our #2, although I still want him to grow up.

I found it interesting about Kat talking about putting on all kind of muscle and wanting to use it. He comes flailing through the lane like he's damn Gumby or something throwing up prayers. When he settles down and posts up and is patient he almost always scores. So many of these looping off balance shots that he takes.

Also Pat Bevs three to start the 4th did get us down by 4. I agree with Doper in Kat feels loserish. If he doesn't win with this group you really have to start to question him. Him and Dlo are terrible leaders. More than half of the league makes the playoffs. Name a top 20 to 25 player that misses the playoffs on a regular basis. Dude is a stat chaser, has admitted to being a stat chaser. People will get stats on losing teams. It's always gonna happen. I'm still holding out hope that Kat can turn it around but it's looking more like Ant will need to be the guy to do that which may be a few years out.

Towns has issues but he is easily a max player and very good player. Let's not get too caught up in things here. Also I have zero problems with his overall effort this year. He is playing hard...It's just he is letting the foul game to get in his head. That's the issue.

Also the idea that KG had half the skill of Towns is ridiculous. First of all KG is one of the best defensive players of my lifetime. Towns should be better but just like offense defense is a skill and KG was one of the best ever IMO. Meanwhile KG was a hell of an offensive player too. I'm still convinced he could play any position on the court early in his career. Let's also remember that KG willing his team to the playoff for years was...getting 40-something wins. Towns is a good player and likely will go down and one of the best offensive centers in the game. Will he be a great player? If he has enough around him to win a championship or 2 then possibly. Pau Gasol was not always considered a great player. He needed to toughen up to win a championship. He wasn't the top dog though and Towns can be a really good player and I'll be happy with that. Could he be more? Yes maybe so that's why people are frustrated with him. Oh maybe the most annoying thing about Towns in this game was that rebound he went after when Russell basically had it secured and they lost it out of bounds.

I'll add that while Russell has been bad the past 2 games and I will say that (pretty obvious) I said the same things about Rubio a player ai like quite a bit. Both guys have track records that say they will be worthwhile players so I expect them to do more. Russell is a little more disappointing because he was playing really well in preseason so ai thought he might be ready to really get rolling. Like others have said he looks more engaged defensively so that's the bright spot. To me this game comes down to possibly being one of those games where the ball doesn't go in. That happens. It's too bad it happened game 3 of the season already but like Cam has mentioned they might come out and win against the bucks or some other unexpected with in the next few games and be right where we would like them to be.

The offense? Let's check in after 10-20 games and see if it's still a problem. It's a concern but with Finch I feel reasonably confident especially since the team has actually shown some serious effort on the defensive end. Those 2 aspects of the game are going to swing to some extent.

I have no doubt KAT could go somewhere else and win - and potentially win big. Heck, it might even happen here. But it gets back to his own ego and self-awareness. Can he cede the leadership mantle to someone else that is better positioned to be in that role? That's a lot easier to do if he ultimately gets traded or signs with another team that has a clear hierarchy and he becomes the 1B or #2 guy. I just question whether KAT can accept being a 1B or #2 type guy here.

(he's still our best player by the way....I'm not ready to say Edwards is yet)

Apologies if this has already been posted but here is a video of Edwards post game. I haven't watched it all yet.

https://youtu.be/vIw0EYyiQjE

24 hours after watching the replay of the loss, I have a different and much more positive take on it. I still see this is a 35 win season, but my optimism for the state of the franchise has increased. And it's because of Ant. I have had some concerns that his playfulness might endear him to Wolves (and NBA) fans, but could ultimately limit his career trajectory. Monday changed my thoughts on this. I loved the fact that his game face never changed during his extraordinary 3rd quarter. The Houston game was never in doubt, and I enjoyed his clowning when he got so hot. But his gravitas during the entire Pelicans game, and his post-game comments, were all the evidence I needed that he is all about winning. I am convinced for the first time that this will be Ant's team-sooner than later- and I see that as a good thing.

KAT and Dlo are another story, but I view their future here differently. Despite his notable defensive improvement, I agree with the majority here that it is more likely than not a fleeting moment, and that he will return to what he has always been- a very talented but mercurial player who will never be part of a winning team. I'm afraid at the end of his career, DLo's fans will still be talking about his all-star year with the Nets as his glory time. He'll have his moments this year- he always does- and win some games for us with clutch 4th quarter plays. But we are not likely to approach .500 as long as he is absorbing almost 1/4 of our payroll. And I'm not condemning the Wig trade, because we were in the same position when he was taking up too much of our payroll. We weren't going anywhere with Wig, and we're not going anywhere with DLo. I think Gupta (or his successor) will find a way in the next couple years to move him (for minimal return), and we will have finally moved on from the original sin- signing Wig to his max.

But I think KAT will be a part of this team going forward, or if not, be traded for a significant return (I hope it;s the former). He's a remarkably productive center with a unique ability to score the ball inside and out, and also a good passer and rebounder. But he is not a leader, and not a #1 option on a winning team. My hope is that this becomes Ant's team, and KAT accepts his role as a very productive #2. I mean, how many teams have a #2 you can count on to put up 25/12/4 every night?

So I look ahead to 2022-23 and an emerging playoff team anchored by Ant, KAT, defensive savant Jaden and whatever DLo brings back in trade- plus perhaps the continuing tough veteran presence of PatBev. I'm giving up on the Simmons dream, but still feeling much more optimistic about this team's future after Monday night.

I'm well aware that nobody wants to read this given the last couple games of terrible offensive play, but I'd argue it's much more likely that D'Angelo Russell gets an extension in Minnesota before he gets traded or walks in free agency. I can't speak for anyone else, but if Russell was making closer to $20-million a year instead of the $30-million that he is, then we likely wouldn't see as many D-Lo haters as we do. The same could have been said for Andrew Wiggins although his play was worth even less. Could he still be traded after signing a new deal? Of course he could. The Wolves are one suboptimal year away from blowing everything up and building around Anthony Edwards. But if this season goes how I think that it will, then we'll be wanting to keep the nucleus together and see what additional parts can be added to the group. I still see Russell as part of the solution in Minnesota making it back to the playoffs.

Camden wrote:I'm well aware that nobody wants to read this given the last couple games of terrible offensive play, but I'd argue it's much more likely that D'Angelo Russell gets an extension in Minnesota before he gets traded or walks in free agency. I can't speak for anyone else, but if Russell was making closer to $20-million a year instead of the $30-million that he is, then we likely wouldn't see as many D-Lo haters as we do. The same could have been said for Andrew Wiggins although his play was worth even less. Could he still be traded after signing a new deal? Of course he could. The Wolves are one suboptimal year away from blowing everything up and building around Anthony Edwards. But if this season goes how I think that it will, then we'll be wanting to keep the nucleus together and see what additional parts can be added to the group. I still see Russell as part of the solution in Minnesota making it back to the playoffs.

I don't know about that.

And this isn't necessarily a knock against Russell. Only that NBA player movement is more pronounced than ever. This is already Russell's 3rd "season" with the team. A lot has to go right for Russell to stick around in MN... either by his own accord or the team's. A lot more can go wrong... or the Wolves might find a great deal for him... or he just wants out ... or...?

He also plays a very specific style. It's sort of like Rubio even if their styles are so vastly different. They're just sorta polarizing because the warts are almost as obvious as the pluses. Every regime wants its own type of players. And Russell's game is not for everybody (right or wrong).

Turnover is just so sky-high right now across the NBA, especially on some of the middling teams like the Wolves, that I wouldn't bank on any long-term projections at this point.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:I'm well aware that nobody wants to read this given the last couple games of terrible offensive play, but I'd argue it's much more likely that D'Angelo Russell gets an extension in Minnesota before he gets traded or walks in free agency. I can't speak for anyone else, but if Russell was making closer to $20-million a year instead of the $30-million that he is, then we likely wouldn't see as many D-Lo haters as we do. The same could have been said for Andrew Wiggins although his play was worth even less. Could he still be traded after signing a new deal? Of course he could. The Wolves are one suboptimal year away from blowing everything up and building around Anthony Edwards. But if this season goes how I think that it will, then we'll be wanting to keep the nucleus together and see what additional parts can be added to the group. I still see Russell as part of the solution in Minnesota making it back to the playoffs.

I don't know about that.

And this isn't necessarily a knock against Russell. Only that NBA player movement is more pronounced than ever. This is already Russell's 3rd "season" with the team. A lot has to go right for Russell to stick around in MN... either by his own accord or the team's. A lot more can go wrong... or the Wolves might find a great deal for him... or he just wants out ... or...?

He also plays a very specific style. It's sort of like Rubio even if their styles are so vastly different. They're just sorta polarizing because the warts are almost as obvious as the pluses. Every regime wants its own type of players. And Russell's game is not for everybody (right or wrong).

Turnover is just so sky-high right now across the NBA, especially on some of the middling teams like the Wolves, that I wouldn't bank on any long-term projections at this point.

I think a big part of this has to do with what role DLO sees himself playing on the Wolves and whether he can be happy deferring largely to KAT and Edwards in terms of touches and shots. This also assumes that Edwards continues his maturation as a ball handler and decision maker. For all of his explosiveness and emerging leadership qualities, he still settles for a lot of bad shots. He needs to be a bit careful about how much he calls others out.