OT - Making Sense of Tragedy

[AbeVigodaLive]

TheGrey, you said
"People have also stated that they've seen inciters randomly come up and start throwing shit at police to get them to react violently, multiple instances where police all of a sudden reacted aggressively to a crowd unprovoked, numerous instances where squads shoot pepper spray on protesters not even on the roadway (my sis was walking on the grass on the side of an on ramp getting away from the 35W bridge when squads came down it spraying mace at them), so lets seriously stop trying to depict protesters as being violent and cops "just protecting themselves" because it's quite frankly bullshit."

Are you talking about right after the tanker truck came through? If so, the police stated they didn't know the intent of the truck driver at that point and were concerned the truck had the potential to explode, which seems to fit the scenario pretty well, and I'd like to think that had the truck exploded, the protesters would have appreciated being forcefully pushed away as opposed to the "hey guys, would you all get far away" option that wouldn't have moved too many people very fast. If it's another incident then maybe I missed it, but if that's the one, then I'm not feeling sorry for anyone.

I was speaking about all the numerous incidents caught on video of physical conflict between protesters and police.

As for the Truck incident, yeah they didn't know if it was a full tanker, was a terrorist attack or what. My sister was maybe 4 feet from being hit when he went into the crowd. The tanker was shown heading toward the bridge live and my mom frantically tried to get a hold of my sister to warn her. Shortly after he stopped some protesters screamed that it was a tanker and people needed to get the hell away from it. Protesters made their way up the Washington Ave exit ramp (walking in the grass) and police drove down the ramp spraying the protesters (my sister was hit by it when the first wave of patrol came through). The below vid is likely the 2nd wave of patrol that came through there:

https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1268955152750264320?s=20

Fair enough. Not to make an excuse, but I'm sure they're told going into these that they can't put on their kid gloves for these 'missions'. That said, I can see people being upset by them (tough to tell if anyone did anything from those distances, but I'll give the protestors the benefit of the doubt).

I think most people agree that police reform is needed from a use of force standpoint. I don't even think that's a racial lines discussion. I also think it's likely fair to say that there are certain disadvantages inherently affecting African Americans. I think the discussions right now in the world is clearly making all of that a big focus on all policies that disadvantage people of color. I think every PD in America, many large businesses in America (maybe I'm bias since our VP and head of HR has put out several video messages/emails on the subject), cities, counties, states, and at the federal level (legislative) are all going to be looking internally at "what should we be doing that we are not." I still maintain that everyone is terrified to talk about the culture that is also a factor in some of these bias. For those who disagree on that point, I guess we'll know soon whether all these other changes make things look fair. I say until that's also addressed, things will get better but will still have a long ways to go, and will somewhat push back some of the policies. There's a lot of chicken or egg discussion, but I don't think it matters which was first because what matters is now, and what will fix things going forward. While this is a human race, there are differences in cultures inherently as well. Individually, there can be a 7'6" Chinese man, but the average height of a Chinese man is between 5'6" and 5'9". Individually you can have a Christian McCaffrey (or Ed McCaffrey for that matter) in an athletic skill position in the NFL, but there's also a reason that he's in the minorities of white players at the position. Asian cultures value collectivism, Western cultures value individualism. Look at careers even within America and you'll see different types of cultural demographics dominating various types of careers. To say black culture is more violent than other cultures isn't racist, it's what the numbers say. If you're convinced that's just the systematic oppression fine, but I think you're blinding yourself from that particular aspect to ignore it when looking for conditions to improve.

Let me give another example... I saw a cartoon about 5 years ago...a parent, a child, and a teacher in a meeting. The 1st drawing had the parent pointing at the child saying "Explain these bad grades" and like 1995 as the year. The 2nd drawing had the parents looking at the teacher saying "Explain these bad grades" and like 2015 or so as the year. Accountability in this age seems like a thing of the past. Everyone wants to blame others. While it's completely reasonable to say there needs to be more police accountability, as well a better system (and both will be changing now), we still sit here with the problem that people always want to blame the system for everything. Let me be very clear here, the system does need to improve, but the lack of accountability within today's society is also equally concerning.

Your example of the cartoon (which I think makes a fair point) needs to go further in terms of accountability. In the 1995 cartoon the lack of accountability could be with the system (the school system), or the teacher and maybe even the parent. I'm not saying the student has no accountability (my mom is a teacher so...I generally felt like my failings as a student were squarely my fault which is why I often didn't ask for help) but just asking the student why the grades are bad may not solve the problem either. I mean just think about that for a minute. Aren't the people (adults) in the room supposed to be the ones working towards that student's success and they are asking the student why they aren't succeeding? Everyone should be trying to solve the problem. I've been on both sides of these situations in education and it can be highly frustrating for everyone trying to figure out the answers. I've certainly seen (again on both sides) where a system or whoever is the contact person directly responsible for education of the student can make a pretty big difference in supporting a student that needs help...as long as the student has some sort of buy in. The student can be held accountable all they want but its going to be incredibly difficult for them to succeed if they don't end up with some more assistance that they need in one form or another. Likewise assistance can be offered but if the student has no interest that won't work either. Its a 2 way street and for many years it seems more like just pull yourself up by the bootstraps and figure it out. Meanwhile people have legit reasons for struggling. Mental health, trauma from various life events including abuse the list can go on and on. Do I tend to agree there is a lack of accountability or blaming others compared to X amount of years ago? Yes. I also think there is more accountability in some ways because people have more legit avenues to actually fight something if its not right. There is more accountability in some aspects of our lives because there is video evidence. Its a classic pendulum swing and we need to try and get into the middle. I think we all know that's difficult. One of the reasons for that is people are individuals. What works for one person doesn't always work for another person. That goes both ways.

When it comes to culture I agree it should be talked about more openly. I think celebrating all cultures would have a positive effect. We aren't all the same.

From what I've seen... school test scores correlate almost directly with...

... free school lunch program recipients. I think it's almost universal across the board that schools with 40% of its students getting free or reduced lunches are performing much worse than a school at 20%... which is worse than 5%...

You get the idea.

Which brings up back to the accountability issue.

1) I think we've lost a ton of accountability in our society as a whole, including parents who blame the teacher for bad grades. Or the coach for not playing Lil Timmy. Et al.

2) Then you have parents who simply don't give a fuck. If nobody at home is holding that kid accountable, the school is in a losing battle. And this is where the socioeconomic stuff is beyond my pay grade... but is it really a surprise that many kids with lousy parents (or only one parent) may have more tendency to become lousy adults?

Obviously, it's not an all-or-nothing bag here. We're playing with numbers and statistics. There are exceptions on all sides... obviously. But those kids with caring, well-meaning, capable and financially secure parents do have a leg up on those without.

[bleedspeed]

That statement says criminals should be held accountable. It doesn't matter if they didn't get to go to the best schools or their parents got divorced or dad was an alcoholic or my friends did it. If you commit a crime you can't blame that crime on something else.

I missed the context entirely. But where does any of that come into this thread? Did you mean to quote a post or something...

Because that's the only thing you wrote in the post, in a thread about the death of a man at the hands of a cop after trying to pass a counterfeit $20.

I have been slow to judge things on this. It doesn't seem there was resistance. If he was not on drugs how would of this been handled differently.

Why did his friend's bail? What if he would have been released and he hit and killed a pedestrian? What happened in the car? When was medical help called? Would have a normal person did under from those events?

The court case is going to be interesting. I feel bad for the judge and jury of this. I hope we get justice whatever that looks like.

[bleedspeed]

Which brings up back to the accountability issue.

1) I think we've lost a ton of accountability in our society as a whole, including parents who blame the teacher for bad grades. Or the coach for not playing Lil Timmy. Et al.

2) Then you have parents who simply don't give a fuck. If nobody at home is holding that kid accountable, the school is in a losing battle. And this is where the socioeconomic stuff is beyond my pay grade... but is it really a surprise that many kids with lousy parents (or only one parent) may have more tendency to become lousy adults?

Obviously, it's not an all-or-nothing bag here. We're playing with numbers and statistics. There are exceptions on all sides... obviously. But those kids with caring, well-meaning, capable and financially secure parents do have a leg up on those without.

Some in our society don't take parenting seriously enough. Not a day goes by that I don't think I could do better. Others are doing much worse than me and don't care.

[AbeVigodaLive]

That statement says criminals should be held accountable. It doesn't matter if they didn't get to go to the best schools or their parents got divorced or dad was an alcoholic or my friends did it. If you commit a crime you can't blame that crime on something else.

I missed the context entirely. But where does any of that come into this thread? Did you mean to quote a post or something...

Because that's the only thing you wrote in the post, in a thread about the death of a man at the hands of a cop after trying to pass a counterfeit $20.

I have been slow to judge things on this. It doesn't seem there was resistance. If he was not on drugs how would of this been handled differently.

Why did his friend's bail? What if he would have been released and he hit and killed a pedestrian? What happened in the car? When was medical help called? Would have a normal person did under from those events?

The court case is going to be interesting. I feel bad for the judge and jury of this. I hope we get justice whatever that looks like.

As noted in this thread... I basically live in the gray wishy washy matter in the middle...

Nearly 9 minutes with a knee to the neck of a guy seems pretty black-and-white. I don't think there's any doubt Chauvin is culpable... and should be held accountable for that level of excessive force.

Was it 2nd degree murder? That's gonna be tough for a jury. But is Chauvin directly accountable for excessive force that led to a man's death? Yes... he's accountable.

A man on drugs who tried to pass a phony bill is a criminal... but to get even remotely close to anything that suggests it was enough to warrant what happened... meh.. Arrested... sure. Killed... no.

[bleedspeed]

Was it 2nd degree murder? That's gonna be tough for a jury. But is Chauvin directly accountable for excessive force that led to a man's death? Yes... he's accountable.

A man on drugs who tried to pass a phony bill is a criminal... but to get even remotely close to anything that suggests it was enough to warrant what happened... meh.. Arrested... sure. Killed... no.

Agreed on both accounts.

For me this less about justice for the victim. This is about fixing a problem that can impact all of us. I would like to see officers carry individual insurance to cover their liability as doctors do. If the insurance company won't cover them they can't do the job. That is another way to work around the unions.

[apollotsg [enjin:6592798]]

All this Archie Bunker yelling about accountability - we have more people in jail than at any time in our history. It's not even logical, its a warped perversion of our judicial system.

Starting with policies by Nixon, then hammered home by the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986, minorities have been disproportionately impacted. There are many studies, papers, documentaries on it - I know some say this is what they get for asking the government to help with the drug problems, but I don't think they thought the white solution was to arrest all the black males under the age of 30 so they can't vote, can't get a job, etc.

Some great highlights
The majority of people in jail are waiting for their trial because they can not afford bail
Black people are the majority of the prison population
Outside interest groups wrote the laws that they are profiting from, like the companies that actually run the private prisons
The majority are not in for violent crimes
There are people serving life sentences for non-violent crimes due to mandatory sentencing, petty stuff

Here is a great Merica quote: "The U.S. incarceration rate peaked in 2008 when about 1 in 100 US adults was behind bars. This incarceration rate exceeded the average incarceration levels in the Soviet Union during the existence of the Gulag system"

Here is another canary:
Incarceration rate per 100,000 people here in 2010 (only males)
White 678
Black 4,347 (13% of the population)
Hispanic 1,775

[bleedspeed]

Throw out the color and race out and look at the real problems.

How many people in jail grew up without a father?
How many were raised by grandparents?
How many have addictions?
How many had abusive parents?
Did they finish high school?

I bet you will see some trends in that.

[mjs34]

I have been slow to judge things on this. It doesn't seem there was resistance. If he was not on drugs how would of this been handled differently.

Why did his friend's bail? What if he would have been released and he hit and killed a pedestrian? What happened in the car? When was medical help called? Would have a normal person did under from those events?

The court case is going to be interesting. I feel bad for the judge and jury of this. I hope we get justice whatever that looks like.

As noted in this thread... I basically live in the gray wishy washy matter in the middle...

Nearly 9 minutes with a knee to the neck of a guy seems pretty black-and-white. I don't think there's any doubt Chauvin is culpable... and should be held accountable for that level of excessive force.

Was it 2nd degree murder? That's gonna be tough for a jury. But is Chauvin directly accountable for excessive force that led to a man's death? Yes... he's accountable.

A man on drugs who tried to pass a phony bill is a criminal... but to get even remotely close to anything that suggests it was enough to warrant what happened... meh.. Arrested... sure. Killed... no.

Like Bleed, I have been cautious to jump ahead of what we actually know. There is very limited evidence, other than the video which may leave out significant details. What I have read, leads me to believe they will have a very hard time convicting any of them of murder.

I have not been able to find Dr. Baden's autopsy report, but reading the county report (if accurate) shows no evidence that the officers inflicted any trauma or injury to cause death. There were no abnormalities in the brain to suggest Hypoxia (lack of blood flow leading to low oxygen levels as Baden suggests). There were no signs of hemorrhaging on the neck or back in tissue samples taken.

In an interview in 2005 with Greta Van Susteren, Baden claimed that not only would you see brain damage due to hypoxia, but could determine what it's cause was. Yet Baden, in a recent interview refers only to the video as evidence that the neck and back pressure caused the death. I am not clear as to how/if the independent autopsy even figures into the prosecution, but it certainly makes me question the certainty of his conclusions.

I am most interested in the body cam footage to find out if certain details I have been told are true. First is that Floyd claimed to be claustrophobic, and second that he was complaining about not being able to breathe before they put him on the ground.

None of this excuses Chauvin of holding him down well past the time Floyd was unresponsive, but it could cast doubt as to the severity of the restraint.

[mrhockey89]

monster, fair point about the cartoon, but I think the overall context of that cartoon is suggesting the parent is the assuming where the accountability goes. Ultimately in life, we all can only be accountable for our own actions. If I'm translating the cartoon literally, then I have yet to see a hard working school kid of any race not succeed. My cousin was a left-leaning math teacher (and robotics club teacher) in California. She quit her job in teaching to start a tutoring company with a colleague for the sole reason that the school didn't have the teacher's backs anymore. If she wanted to have a conference with a parent about their child? She wasn't allowed. She would have to contact the principal and the principal would call the parent and be an intermediary. Teachers get zero benefit of the doubt anymore, really pretty similar to police to be perfectly honest. Self-accountability is truly out the window in today's society, and people are scared straight to call it out (and that even includes within the police).

[AbeVigodaLive]

monster, fair point about the cartoon, but I think the overall context of that cartoon is suggesting the parent is the assuming where the accountability goes. Ultimately in life, we all can only be accountable for our own actions. If I'm translating the cartoon literally, then I have yet to see a hard working school kid of any race not succeed. My cousin was a left-leaning math teacher (and robotics club teacher) in California. She quit her job in teaching to start a tutoring company with a colleague for the sole reason that the school didn't have the teacher's backs anymore. If she wanted to have a conference with a parent about their child? She wasn't allowed. She would have to contact the principal and the principal would call the parent and be an intermediary. Teachers get zero benefit of the doubt anymore, really pretty similar to police to be perfectly honest. Self-accountability is truly out the window in today's society, and people are scared straight to call it out (and that even includes within the police).

The prosecution rates when police are actually charged with murder or other serious crimes while on duty... would reveal that they do actually get a A LOT of benefit of doubt.

The police remain very well insulated.