Q12543 wrote:I guess the good news is that these last two road losses were at least toss ups (?). We could have just as easily won either game.
Disappointing to see the defense regress again.....
By far my favorite post in this thread. With all the nonsense going back and forth, Q makes a couple simple points that basically trump everything else said. It's great because Q isn't usually understated, but decided to avoid the fray. Kudos to you, wish i had done the same.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:By the way, what standard of measurement do you have to use to come up with Jimmy being 6'-8"? They used to call the 6-4 Charles Barkley that too.
He plays like he's 6'8", Wiggins plays like he's 5'2!
In the end we might regret not trading Wiggins instead of Lavine. I like both players a lot, and I think they both will be very solid NBA players. But it is so hard to compare how player X would do than player Y in certain situations. Now if Lavine was on this team instead of Wiggins, he would be the third option and how would he do if he was asked to stand in the corner like Wiggins is. We are looking at different roles, Lavine on the Bulls is asked to do almost everything for them down the clutch and damn was he good tonight and good for him.
Like everyone else has said we need to run shit in the last 5 minutes of the game, I am fine with Jimmy taking the shots but lets run him off screens, lets post him up, lets get more ball movement so teams can't load up on him like they did tonight leaving Tyus open and one possession where they left Wiggins wide open and Wiggins missed the open 3.
I don't think we are far off being a really good team, but we have some pretty bad late game execution and I think that is fixable. Like even tonight we had a wide open 3 by our best 3 point shooter and he missed it. I will take that shot 10 out of 10 times.
Don't you think with Lavine's handle Thibs would use him more rather than a diet of 100% Butler late in close games? Lavine can get where he wants and still possess the ball once he gets there unlike every Wolves player not named Butler!
I thought it was idiotic last season when Thibs would put the ball in Wiggins hands to run the half-court offense when he had LaVine, who has always been a MUCH better ball-handler and shooter than Wiggins. That's an indictment of Thibs as head coach. Trading LaVine instead of Wiggins and giving up more assets in the process is an indictment of Thibs PBO.
Who was the better head coach tonight, Thibs or Fred?
I am just saying, if we make that trade Wiggins instead of Lavine, we might not be in the playoffs right now, with Lavine coming off an ACL injury. I am not going to blame Thibs for not taking that risk.
In the end we still dont know. Mad props to Zach though, still one of my favorite players in the League.
Who cares about this year. I couldn't care less if we make the playoffs and get ousted vs missing it. What matters is winning a Championship in 2-3-4 years from now.
I hated the trade because we were selling out for the short term upside versus the long term. Cause I always thought Zach would be far superior to Wiggins over time and he'd be the key piece to a Championship team. It just seems to be coming to fruition too, which makes me more PO'd.
Now that said, I'm not around the guys all the time. I wonder if Thibs had information on that Zach would bolt for LA or somewhere else. So as much as I hated the trade, I got to look at all sides.
I doubt Thibs had any sense that Zach would leave. The Lakers have had their sights set on other players (PG, LeBron). Thibs simply thought Wiggins was better. He was wrong. He preferred Patton over John Collins. So far, he was wrong about that. The Lakers front office spotted Kuzma but Thibs didn't. Thibs thought Teague was worth $19 million a year for 3 years, giving up Rubio and passing on signing Collison for $10 million per year. I'm not impressed by Thibs the PBO. He's not in the David Kahn idiot category, but he hasn't distinguished himself as particularly good. Now if he signs Rose, then maybe he'll start apparoaching Kahn territory. :).
Lol we're significantly better than every team those guys are on. You're giving way too much credit to box score numbers on bad teams. Meanwhile we're the 4 seed and already won more games this year than all of last year. That really sounds like a garbage PBO to me. Who else has made as big a jump in the league this year as us? GS, HOU, SA were all top 3 last year. BOS, Toronto, Cleveland, Wash were top 4 last year as well. We made the biggest quality jump in the league and somehow our PBO in bordering on Kahn levels. Get out of here.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:Oh boy. For a night the anti Wiggins gang gets some rocket fuel for all their venom to spew out. Congratulations, have your day in the sun. Never mind that the announcing crew was marveling at how easy the game comes to Wiggins in the first half, when he was actually involved in Thibs offense. Never mind how Wiggins was winning the matchup when they were actually paired against each other. Never mind that Zach had all the motivation in the world to play great tonight. Never mind, and how soon you forget, that Zach is one of the worst defenders at his position in the league. And never mind that there will be other nights when these teams get together and play. But Dammit, Zach won the game last night for the Bulls and that's final confirmation that we traded the wrong guy. I wish the world was that simple. Nick Foles would be the best quarterback in the NFL and Chumbawamba would be known as the best band ever.
Take it for what it's worth but Zachs PER is 18.6 so far this season and his DRtg is 109. Both career bests.
Wiggins PER is 13.4 and DRtg is 112. PER is a career low.
OK so Zach hasn't played as much. But then again he should be rusty from no training camp and offseason rehab. But he's playing better then ever and Wiggins took a dump this year.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:Oh boy. For a night the anti Wiggins gang gets some rocket fuel for all their venom to spew out. Congratulations, have your day in the sun. Never mind that the announcing crew was marveling at how easy the game comes to Wiggins in the first half, when he was actually involved in Thibs offense. Never mind how Wiggins was winning the matchup when they were actually paired against each other. Never mind that Zach had all the motivation in the world to play great tonight. Never mind, and how soon you forget, that Zach is one of the worst defenders at his position in the league. And never mind that there will be other nights when these teams get together and play. But Dammit, Zach won the game last night for the Bulls and that's final confirmation that we traded the wrong guy. I wish the world was that simple. Nick Foles would be the best quarterback in the NFL and Chumbawamba would be known as the best band ever.
Take it for what it's worth but Zachs PER is 18.6 so far this season and his DRtg is 109. Both career bests.
Wiggins PER is 13.4 and DRtg is 112. PER is a career low.
OK so Zach hasn't played as much. But then again he should be rusty from no training camp and offseason rehab. But he's playing better then ever and Wiggins took a dump this year.
Another copy and paste stats genius. Just what we need. Thanks.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:Oh boy. For a night the anti Wiggins gang gets some rocket fuel for all their venom to spew out. Congratulations, have your day in the sun. Never mind that the announcing crew was marveling at how easy the game comes to Wiggins in the first half, when he was actually involved in Thibs offense. Never mind how Wiggins was winning the matchup when they were actually paired against each other. Never mind that Zach had all the motivation in the world to play great tonight. Never mind, and how soon you forget, that Zach is one of the worst defenders at his position in the league. And never mind that there will be other nights when these teams get together and play. But Dammit, Zach won the game last night for the Bulls and that's final confirmation that we traded the wrong guy. I wish the world was that simple. Nick Foles would be the best quarterback in the NFL and Chumbawamba would be known as the best band ever.
Take it for what it's worth but Zachs PER is 18.6 so far this season and his DRtg is 109. Both career bests.
Wiggins PER is 13.4 and DRtg is 112. PER is a career low.
OK so Zach hasn't played as much. But then again he should be rusty from no training camp and offseason rehab. But he's playing better then ever and Wiggins took a dump this year.
Another copy and paste stats genius. Just what we need. Thanks.
Stats in the hands of the wrong people can be dangerous.
In the end we might regret not trading Wiggins instead of Lavine. I like both players a lot, and I think they both will be very solid NBA players. But it is so hard to compare how player X would do than player Y in certain situations. Now if Lavine was on this team instead of Wiggins, he would be the third option and how would he do if he was asked to stand in the corner like Wiggins is. We are looking at different roles, Lavine on the Bulls is asked to do almost everything for them down the clutch and damn was he good tonight and good for him.
Like everyone else has said we need to run shit in the last 5 minutes of the game, I am fine with Jimmy taking the shots but lets run him off screens, lets post him up, lets get more ball movement so teams can't load up on him like they did tonight leaving Tyus open and one possession where they left Wiggins wide open and Wiggins missed the open 3.
I don't think we are far off being a really good team, but we have some pretty bad late game execution and I think that is fixable. Like even tonight we had a wide open 3 by our best 3 point shooter and he missed it. I will take that shot 10 out of 10 times.
Don't you think with Lavine's handle Thibs would use him more rather than a diet of 100% Butler late in close games? Lavine can get where he wants and still possess the ball once he gets there unlike every Wolves player not named Butler!
I thought it was idiotic last season when Thibs would put the ball in Wiggins hands to run the half-court offense when he had LaVine, who has always been a MUCH better ball-handler and shooter than Wiggins. That's an indictment of Thibs as head coach. Trading LaVine instead of Wiggins and giving up more assets in the process is an indictment of Thibs PBO.
Who was the better head coach tonight, Thibs or Fred?
I am just saying, if we make that trade Wiggins instead of Lavine, we might not be in the playoffs right now, with Lavine coming off an ACL injury. I am not going to blame Thibs for not taking that risk.
In the end we still dont know. Mad props to Zach though, still one of my favorite players in the League.
Who cares about this year. I couldn't care less if we make the playoffs and get ousted vs missing it. What matters is winning a Championship in 2-3-4 years from now.
I hated the trade because we were selling out for the short term upside versus the long term. Cause I always thought Zach would be far superior to Wiggins over time and he'd be the key piece to a Championship team. It just seems to be coming to fruition too, which makes me more PO'd.
Now that said, I'm not around the guys all the time. I wonder if Thibs had information on that Zach would bolt for LA or somewhere else. So as much as I hated the trade, I got to look at all sides.
I doubt Thibs had any sense that Zach would leave. The Lakers have had their sights set on other players (PG, LeBron). Thibs simply thought Wiggins was better. He was wrong. He preferred Patton over John Collins. So far, he was wrong about that. The Lakers front office spotted Kuzma but Thibs didn't. Thibs thought Teague was worth $19 million a year for 3 years, giving up Rubio and passing on signing Collison for $10 million per year. I'm not impressed by Thibs the PBO. He's not in the David Kahn idiot category, but he hasn't distinguished himself as particularly good. Now if he signs Rose, then maybe he'll start apparoaching Kahn territory. :).
Lol we're significantly better than every team those guys are on. You're giving way too much credit to box score numbers on bad teams. Meanwhile we're the 4 seed and already won more games this year than all of last year. That really sounds like a garbage PBO to me. Who else has made as big a jump in the league this year as us? GS, HOU, SA were all top 3 last year. BOS, Toronto, Cleveland, Wash were top 4 last year as well. We made the biggest quality jump in the league and somehow our PBO in bordering on Kahn levels. Get out of here.
Kahn, I usually think you're spot on with most things you say, but to give Tibs a ton of credit for this amazing turnaround is BS in my opinion. He took a team over with a ton of assets, players, the 3 young guys we all know about and had a 5th and 8th pick at his disposal. That's a ton of flexibility. He turned a lot of the assets into a great player (Butler), I'm not gonna debate whether that was a good trade or not, but in today's landscape of the NBA when star players are on the Market, there are so few teams who can acccomidate or facilitate a trade is so few. The team trading for the disgruntled star has to have enough talent left over to win after the trade to win to appease the star player while having enough young assets to facility the trade in the first place. We were one of a couple teams which had said assest and infustucture in place. I think looking at the Griffin, George and Irving trades, I think you could make an argument we overpaid for Butler, relative to the market price for a star player. Part of that was because Dunn didn't have value of a 5th pick and Zach was coming if an injury.
Anyway, I don't wanna dissect the trade, but any GM in the league worth anything could of facilitated that Butler trade with our assets. I wont even get into the 3 terrible contracts Tibs has handed out since coming here to hinder our chances in the future. He's done a poor job in my opinion.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:Oh boy. For a night the anti Wiggins gang gets some rocket fuel for all their venom to spew out. Congratulations, have your day in the sun. Never mind that the announcing crew was marveling at how easy the game comes to Wiggins in the first half, when he was actually involved in Thibs offense. Never mind how Wiggins was winning the matchup when they were actually paired against each other. Never mind that Zach had all the motivation in the world to play great tonight. Never mind, and how soon you forget, that Zach is one of the worst defenders at his position in the league. And never mind that there will be other nights when these teams get together and play. But Dammit, Zach won the game last night for the Bulls and that's final confirmation that we traded the wrong guy. I wish the world was that simple. Nick Foles would be the best quarterback in the NFL and Chumbawamba would be known as the best band ever.
Take it for what it's worth but Zachs PER is 18.6 so far this season and his DRtg is 109. Both career bests.
Wiggins PER is 13.4 and DRtg is 112. PER is a career low.
OK so Zach hasn't played as much. But then again he should be rusty from no training camp and offseason rehab. But he's playing better then ever and Wiggins took a dump this year.
Another copy and paste stats genius. Just what we need. Thanks.
Just pointing out facts. It wasn't a genius move, purely obvious.
In the end we might regret not trading Wiggins instead of Lavine. I like both players a lot, and I think they both will be very solid NBA players. But it is so hard to compare how player X would do than player Y in certain situations. Now if Lavine was on this team instead of Wiggins, he would be the third option and how would he do if he was asked to stand in the corner like Wiggins is. We are looking at different roles, Lavine on the Bulls is asked to do almost everything for them down the clutch and damn was he good tonight and good for him.
Like everyone else has said we need to run shit in the last 5 minutes of the game, I am fine with Jimmy taking the shots but lets run him off screens, lets post him up, lets get more ball movement so teams can't load up on him like they did tonight leaving Tyus open and one possession where they left Wiggins wide open and Wiggins missed the open 3.
I don't think we are far off being a really good team, but we have some pretty bad late game execution and I think that is fixable. Like even tonight we had a wide open 3 by our best 3 point shooter and he missed it. I will take that shot 10 out of 10 times.
Don't you think with Lavine's handle Thibs would use him more rather than a diet of 100% Butler late in close games? Lavine can get where he wants and still possess the ball once he gets there unlike every Wolves player not named Butler!
I thought it was idiotic last season when Thibs would put the ball in Wiggins hands to run the half-court offense when he had LaVine, who has always been a MUCH better ball-handler and shooter than Wiggins. That's an indictment of Thibs as head coach. Trading LaVine instead of Wiggins and giving up more assets in the process is an indictment of Thibs PBO.
Who was the better head coach tonight, Thibs or Fred?
I am just saying, if we make that trade Wiggins instead of Lavine, we might not be in the playoffs right now, with Lavine coming off an ACL injury. I am not going to blame Thibs for not taking that risk.
In the end we still dont know. Mad props to Zach though, still one of my favorite players in the League.
Who cares about this year. I couldn't care less if we make the playoffs and get ousted vs missing it. What matters is winning a Championship in 2-3-4 years from now.
I hated the trade because we were selling out for the short term upside versus the long term. Cause I always thought Zach would be far superior to Wiggins over time and he'd be the key piece to a Championship team. It just seems to be coming to fruition too, which makes me more PO'd.
Now that said, I'm not around the guys all the time. I wonder if Thibs had information on that Zach would bolt for LA or somewhere else. So as much as I hated the trade, I got to look at all sides.
I doubt Thibs had any sense that Zach would leave. The Lakers have had their sights set on other players (PG, LeBron). Thibs simply thought Wiggins was better. He was wrong. He preferred Patton over John Collins. So far, he was wrong about that. The Lakers front office spotted Kuzma but Thibs didn't. Thibs thought Teague was worth $19 million a year for 3 years, giving up Rubio and passing on signing Collison for $10 million per year. I'm not impressed by Thibs the PBO. He's not in the David Kahn idiot category, but he hasn't distinguished himself as particularly good. Now if he signs Rose, then maybe he'll start apparoaching Kahn territory. :).
Lol we're significantly better than every team those guys are on. You're giving way too much credit to box score numbers on bad teams. Meanwhile we're the 4 seed and already won more games this year than all of last year. That really sounds like a garbage PBO to me. Who else has made as big a jump in the league this year as us? GS, HOU, SA were all top 3 last year. BOS, Toronto, Cleveland, Wash were top 4 last year as well. We made the biggest quality jump in the league and somehow our PBO in bordering on Kahn levels. Get out of here.
Kahn, I usually think you're spot on with most things you say, but to give Tibs a ton of credit for this amazing turnaround is BS in my opinion. He took a team over with a ton of assets, players, the 3 young guys we all know about and had a 5th and 8th pick at his disposal. That's a ton of flexibility. He turned a lot of the assets into a great player (Butler), I'm not gonna debate whether that was a good trade or not, but in today's landscape of the NBA when star players are on the Market, there are so few teams who can acccomidate or facilitate a trade is so few. The team trading for the disgruntled star has to have enough talent left over to win after the trade to win to appease the star player while having enough young assets to facility the trade in the first place. We were one of a couple teams which had said assest and infustucture in place. I think looking at the Griffin, George and Irving trades, I think you could make an argument we overpaid for Butler, relative to the market price for a star player. Part of that was because Dunn didn't have value of a 5th pick and Zach was coming if an injury.
Anyway, I don't wanna dissect the trade, but any GM in the league worth anything could of facilitated that Butler trade with our assets. I wont even get into the 3 terrible contracts Tibs has handed out since coming here to hinder our chances in the future. He's done a poor job in my opinion.
Well said, Duke. I liked the Butler trade even though I think the smarter move would have been to trade Wiggins instead of LaVine and keep either our #8 pick or Dunn. And in retrospect, I like the Taj Gibson signing, although I think Thibs had to outbid everyone else to get him. But its the totality of Thibs moves given what he inherited when he arrived that troubles me, including the Dieng and Teague contracts. We're in a tough spot now in that I don't see how we can re-sign Belly next summer without going over the luxury tax threshold. And that's before you consider using some or all of our $8.5 million MLE. As we've all read, there is no market for highly paid mediocre players like Teague and Dieng in the near term, which means you can't clear them from the roster without also giving up valuable assets like future first round picks. Again, I'm not suggesting that Thibs is David Kahn bad at this point, but he hasn't beeen particularly impressive.
Thibs has never even worked in an NBA front office, much less served in the top position. That's why giving him total control as both head coach and PBO never made sense to me in the first place. I like Thibs patience, including his reluctance to deal the OKC pick we got for Ricky. But if it's true that he's trying hard to sign Derrick Rose, someone is going to have to explain that one to me. I see that as a page right out of David Kahn's Brandon Roy playbook. Sign a guy who can't play anymore because he once could, believing that somehow things will be different. Not to mention the attitude baggage Rose seems to carry. And even if there is something left in Rose's knees, we're a team that needs better perimeter defense amd improved 3-point shooting, yet Rose has never been a good defender or a good 3-point shooter. Is Rose really better than Tyus? If not, then what about the $19 million per year we have tied up in Teague.
