Minnesota Sports Forum

bleedspeed177 wrote:PA is really pushing that Wiggins was sold as Kawhi Leonard type player and wants to see him shut down Hayward tonight.

PA knows horse racing and football, but has never understood baseball or basketball. Wig starts out on Hood and Tay on Hayward. By the time Wig gets his chance to guard Hayward, this game is already over.

longstrangetrip wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:PA is really pushing that Wiggins was sold as Kawhi Leonard type player and wants to see him shut down Hayward tonight.

PA knows horse racing and football, but has never understood baseball or basketball. Wig starts out on Hood and Tay on Hayward. By the time Wig gets his chance to guard Hayward, this game is already over.

I get the premise though.

Utah is the proverbial wounded animal. Hayward is clearly the team's best player. Hood has only reached 17+ twice this season. IF Wiggins is the defensive stopper a lot of us expect (or already assume he is), I can see why putting him on Hayward instead of the 35-year-old Prince makes sense.

Granted, I can see the opposing view, too. I just think a lot of people are anxious to see more of those superstar moments/streaks. It can be hard to patient during the humdrum portion of the season...

PA was referring to a few games where Leonard shutdown players he mentioned Paul George, Heyward, and 3rd player. He said he has not seen Wiggins do that. It would be nice to see him go head on with Heyward and shut him down. I would say personally think he scoring more then I thought he would. I though he would be more of that 15pts 5rbs 1 blk 1stl kind of player.

If he hasn't seen Wiggins shut down opposing stars, he hasn't been watching very closely. It's happened time and time again,.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:If he hasn't seen Wiggins shut down opposing stars, he hasn't been watching very closely. It's happened time and time again,.

Fair enough. Can you share some examples? Also... what are your thoughts on the advanced stats indicating that Wiggins is not even an average defender? Is it only because of the relative lack of steals and blocks? Are there areas he can improve?

Not being facetious... I'm intrigued by the Wiggins is a good defender argument. I see moments of that, too... but is it because those are more memorable? Or, because I WANT to see them so badly?

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:If he hasn't seen Wiggins shut down opposing stars, he hasn't been watching very closely. It's happened time and time again,.

Fair enough. Can you share some examples? Also... what are your thoughts on the advanced stats indicating that Wiggins is not even an average defender? Is it only because of the relative lack of steals and blocks? Are there areas he can improve?

Not being facetious... I'm intrigued by the Wiggins is a good defender argument. I see moments of that, too... but is it because those are more memorable? Or, because I WANT to see them so badly?

Abe, you know me. I'm not going to go back and scour box scores looking for evidence. My take is simply from watching the games and focusing on Wiggins (which I do quite a bit). Off the top of my head you might want to look at the games against Wade and Harden. But it's my viewpoint that Andrew is extremely good at keeping his man in front of him and limiting scoring opportunities.

Not sure about the advanced stats argument. I'm sure steals are a part of it, and he clearly needs to rebound better. He seems to play a little conservatively on D, I'd like to see just a little bit of CoBrew in him and see him take some gambles with that athleticism. I've made the point before regarding his stamina, I just don't think he has his grown man lungs and legs yet. He seems to labor quite a bit out on the court, and it appears to affect everything from his rebounding to his free throw shooting. I'd hope this next offseason is spent on shooting and conditioning. If he can come back a more conditioned athlete with a better shooting stroke, we could really have something special.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:If he hasn't seen Wiggins shut down opposing stars, he hasn't been watching very closely. It's happened time and time again,.

Fair enough. Can you share some examples? Also... what are your thoughts on the advanced stats indicating that Wiggins is not even an average defender? Is it only because of the relative lack of steals and blocks? Are there areas he can improve?

Not being facetious... I'm intrigued by the Wiggins is a good defender argument. I see moments of that, too... but is it because those are more memorable? Or, because I WANT to see them so badly?

Abe, you know me. I'm not going to go back and scour box scores looking for evidence. My take is simply from watching the games and focusing on Wiggins (which I do quite a bit). Off the top of my head you might want to look at the games against Wade and Harden. But it's my viewpoint that Andrew is extremely good at keeping his man in front of him and limiting scoring opportunities.

Not sure about the advanced stats argument. I'm sure steals are a part of it, and he clearly needs to rebound better. He seems to play a little conservatively on D, I'd like to see just a little bit of CoBrew in him and see him take some gambles with that athleticism. I've made the point before regarding his stamina, I just don't think he has his grown man lungs and legs yet. He seems to labor quite a bit out on the court, and it appears to affect everything from his rebounding to his free throw shooting. I'd hope this next offseason is spent on shooting and conditioning. If he can come back a more conditioned athlete with a better shooting stroke, we could really have something special.

And you know me. You knew I couldn't resist sneaking a peek.

vs. Wade this season:
18 ppg / 5.0 reb / 3.0 ast / 50% fg
- one good game... one bad game for Wade. Season averages: 19 / 4 / 5 / 46% fg

vs. Harden (last season):
31.3 ppg / 5.8 reb / 8.5 ast / 44.3% fg
Harden vs. everybody else: 27.4 ppg / 6.1 reb / 6.9 ast / 44.0% fg

I know there's a ton of noise in those figures... for example, how much was Wiggins guarding them. How much did they score vs. him. Et al.

But both guys produced near / at / or above their season averages. That's what intrigues me. Wiggins looks the part. And we can all point to specific examples on specific plays. Or, even sometimes games. But when it's all added up... the stats don't show the same things most of us are seeing.

Is that on the team? Scheme? Wiggins? Fluke? Or, some combination of all of it? Or does he really need to improve more on both ends of the court than we might think?

There is a bunch of data on NBA.com that supports the view that Wiggins is a very good one-on-one defender.

The issue is that defense is a lot more than simply slowing down or stopping your own guy. What about securing defensive rebounds? What about drawing charges? What about getting deflections? He's below average to just plain bad in what I would call the "team defensive" categories. When he's out there with KAT, Rubio, KG, and Prince, he is part of a darn-near elite defensive unit. But don't expect him to be a defensive anchor in the same mold of Kawhi Leonard, who does the isolation defense AND gets rebounds, deflections, and creates turnovers.

Q12543 wrote:There is a bunch of data on NBA.com that supports the view that Wiggins is a very good one-on-one defender.

The issue is that defense is a lot more than simply slowing down or stopping your own guy. What about securing defensive rebounds? What about drawing charges? What about getting deflections? He's below average to just plain bad in what I would call the "team defensive" categories. When he's out there with KAT, Rubio, KG, and Prince, he is part of a darn-near elite defensive unit. But don't expect him to be a defensive anchor in the same mold of Kawhi Leonard, who does the isolation defense AND gets rebounds, deflections, and creates turnovers.

That's right. Long or Monster or somebody shared some of that. (Probably in this thread!) I remember it was relatively incomplete though, right? Like there were only 30 or 40 or 60 or something actual Iso plays to draw from. I need that link.

And a better memory.

These where what I posted from December 14th. I don't feel like finding the updated ones.

Wiggins has seen 25 isolation plays and held opponents to .52 PPP and 27.3% FG shooting in isolation. He's defended the ball handler in the PnR 76 times and held opponents to .70 PPP and 33.9% FG shooting (Rubio is only one better on the team). In 24 post attempts he's holding opponents to .46 PPP and 11.8% FG shooting. In 78 spot up attempts it's .99 PPP and 39.7% FG shooting. In 26 handoffs he's at .96 PPP and 40% FG shooting. In 25 plays off screens he's at .72 PPP and 29.2% FG shooting. He's in the top 89.2% in ISO, 66% in ball handler, 96% post-up, 38.8% spot up, 39% hand-off and 74.7% off screens. So he struggles at two things defensively and yet he's still measured out badly on the defensive side of the ball with advanced metrics. That says to me they put way too much value in stat stuffing.