Minnesota Sports Forum

KiwiMatt wrote:I'm on the fence about this trade. First and foremost we got rid of the cancer which has ruined our season. And let's watch from a far while he single handidly destroys 'the process' in Philly.

As Cam mentioned this trade from the Wolves point of view hinges on how you feel about Dario Saric. I have always been intrigued by him since his days playing in Europe.

It's easy to dwell on the negatives (especially being a Wolves fan) but I think RoCo and Saric are a good fit. Yes RoCo doesn't have a great handle and isn't a shot creator but he does everything else well. Yes it's not ideal next to Wiggins, but if we had Richardson we'd be complaining about having two wings who are terrible rebounders.

We definitely should have demanded another 2nd round pick though.

TheFuture wrote:

KG4Ever wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

Duke13 wrote:I think Jimmy has enough self awareness to see that, I could be wrong but I suspect he will mesh well.

Philly has a better infrastructure to manage personalities, better coach, front office and their star players play hard.

They also traded two of the players that fit extremely well around their two young stars. A catch and shoot 3-D and a rich-mans Bjelicia.

I don't envision great things offensively with Jimmy, Simmons, and Embiid on the floor. Defensively, nothing really changed.

Based on this season, you got it backwards. Saric is a poor man's Belly.

70+ more games to be played.

Saric is a good player, and better than Belly.

Maybe, maybe not. Until we see how Saric performs as a Wolf, we don't know what we got.

Interesting Woj Article on Butler Trade. It rings true from a reporter who knows his stuff. I've bolded some particularly interesting passages, but the whole article is worth reading. Among other things, it confirms my prediction a couple months ago that the offers would not get better over time. According to Woj, they got worse. It confirms my suspicious that Thibodeau sold Taylor a bill of goods and that Taylor, the affable dunce, succumbed. Anyway, here's the article in its entirety:

"As Tom Thibodeau's plan disintegrated, owner Glen Taylor lost his last remnants of belief in this crumbling regime. Taylor had delivered Thibodeau a long and rich contract as the Minnesota Timberwolves president and coach, control of basketball operations and the trust to be a steward of a franchise forever in disrepair.

Taylor's judgment has been perpetually suspect, from a secret Joe Smith deal that cost Minnesota draft picks to wasting Kevin Garnett's prime to the David Kahn catastrophe. In getting things wrong, Taylor has been spectacular in his mishaps.

In the end, Taylor didn't sign off on a Jimmy Butler trade as much as he surrendered to one of the most embarrassing episodes in franchise history.

Thibodeau sold Taylor on trading a starry young core and a high lottery pick to Chicago for Butler on draft night in 2017, sold him on waiting out Butler's preseason trade demand for two months.

He sold him a strategy of publicly excusing Butler's disruptive behavior, compromising his own credibility within his locker room, because Thibodeau believed he could navigate the dysfunction and win games.

Thibodeau sold Taylor on passing on a strong Miami trade package, because he was sure Pat Riley would come back with a better offer, and the league would chase in a bidding frenzy for Butler.

Taylor kept doubling-down, and when he hung up the phone with Philadelphia owner Josh Harris on Saturday morning, Minnesota had lost everything -- the four-time All-Star in his prime, the trade standoff, and ultimately, the trust to stay with Thibodeau and GM Scott Layden beyond this season.

Even at the expense of sullying his professional standing, Butler played them all in Minnesota -- and shamed the Timberwolves into trading him to a big market contender. The Timberwolves couldn't find a team to bail them out of this debacle, and Thibodeau couldn't sell Taylor on one more basketball game with Butler in a Timberwolves uniform.

Eventually, Thibodeau had lost hope that he could convince Butler to stay long term, but his ego still believed he could coach these Timberwolves into playoff contention before the February trade deadline. He underestimated this saga's impact on the rest of the team, especially his young max-contract players, as they watched Thibodeau excuse behavior and beg him to play games.

Minnesota desperately tried to cobble together trade offers in the past week, including extensive discussions with New Orleans, league sources said. The Pelicans are limited on tradeable assets, but desperate to find star power to keep Anthony Davis for the long run. The Pelicans wouldn't include point guard Jrue Holiday in its offer, nor multiple draft picks, league sources said.

Minnesota passed on a Miami deal weeks ago that would've included guard Josh Richardson, and the Heat never returned him into talks, sources said. Washington wouldn't offer guard Bradley Beal, sources said.

Through it all, the 76ers lurked. When Philadelphia principal owner Josh Harris talked with Taylor at the NBA's Board of Governors meeting in September, Taylor made it clear that he hoped the 76ers would become part of the trade process. Harris was eager to engage, but GM Elton Brand -- still new to the job -- intentionally resisted for weeks as the Timberwolves whiffed on unrealistic asks for Butler, including finding a third team for Gorgui Dieng and the three years, $48 million left on his contract.

The Sixers initial offer was restrained, letting the Timberwolves choose between Dario Saric or Robert Covington, sources said. Within the past 10 to 14 days, the deal finally included both players -- but no first-round pick. Philadelphia's salary structure made the Sixers reluctant to pay Dario Saric $16 to $20 million annually on his rookie extension next year, allowing them to trade Robert Covington's four years, $46 million to clear the way to make Butler the third major financial investment with Joel Embiid and the max contract that will eventually come for Ben Simmons.

The Sixers believe they're working out of a position of leverage with Butler. They want to sign him long term this summer, and Butler is hellbent on a massive financial score. Philadelphia's locker room is a temperamental mix, and Butler needs to discover the best way to grow his young teammates. Whoever's fault with Chicago and Minnesota, that hasn't been Butler's strongest resume line.

As one league executive who pursued a Butler trade told ESPN, "He has to be on his best behavior (in Philly), and he knows it. If he screws up that team, that'll be three straight teams. Someone will sign him in free agency, but he won't get all that he's asking for."

Only the Sixers can sign him to a fifth guaranteed year, and only they'll be able to pay him the most on a four-year deal. The Sixers will get to study his body, and get to measure the medical risks of signing him into his mid-30s too.

In a lot of ways, Butler is perfect for the Philadelphia marketplace: Tough-minded, fierce and unafraid. The fans will love him. As the Sixers fell behind Boston, Toronto and Milwaukee in the standings -- and July free agency offered no guaranteed solutions -- this deal made sense on every level for the Sixers.

As Philadelphia ramps up its rise into contention, Minnesota is sorting through what's left in Butler's wake. Taylor considered firing Thibodeau and Layden in the summer -- well before the Butler situation escalated -- and has continued to consider possibilities to eventually replace both of them, league sources said. There's immense pressure on Minnesota's management structure to see dividends on this trade.

Thibodeau gambled using every fiber of a coach's short-term sensibilities over those of management's longer view -- and lost on them all. Butler deserves his blame for an unseemly two months that dented the NBA brand, but Thibodeau didn't trade for a stranger in June 2017. Butler was his guy, and Thibodeau will be accountable for the fallout.

Commissioner Adam Silver disdained the optics of these past several weeks and that has left plenty of owners convinced Silver is a strong believer in the separation of front office and coaching powers. Silver was one of several league powerbrokers who Thibodeau visited in his season out between Chicago and Minnesota. Back then, Thibodeau sold himself as a rejuvenated renaissance man, promising to bring a different disposition to his next job.

Thibodeau the coach turned out to be Thibodeau the president and coach: Embroiled in turmoil, entangled in needless clashes and chasing today over tomorrow.

His big score as an executive turned out to be his undoing as a coach. Jimmy Butler's gone now, but the price to get him, appease him and ultimately trade him, could cost Tom Thibodeau everything." [THE END]

I don't really care that much that we missed out on Josh Richardson. The deal we ended up with is something I would have been fairly happy with weeks ago so...whatever. Thibs job now is more about his coaching. If he doesn't get the job done there he will he fired and will deserve it. Personally I'm intrigued to see how it plays out on the court.

Have to say it is a wonderful story, but to say the deals got worse is without merit. We know Miami offered some version of JRich, a bad contract (waiters?) and a protected first round pick. That isn't on par with what we got. If Adebayo was a part of it I would agree with him, but we have no proof of that.

Woj making it sound like a great financial decision makes no sense. Covington and 16-20 mil for Saric is still less than what Butler is looking for on a max deal.

The wolves could still look to move Saric, and I am pretty sure they could get a middle first for him.

sjm34 wrote:Have to say it is a wonderful story, but to say the deals got worse is without merit. We know Miami offered some version of JRich, a bad contract (waiters?) and a protected first round pick. That isn't on par with what we got. If Adebayo was a part of it I would agree with him, but we have no proof of that.

Woj making it sound like a great financial decision makes no sense. Covington and 16-20 mil for Saric is still less than what Butler is looking for on a max deal.

The wolves could still look to move Saric, and I am pretty sure they could get a middle first for him.

According to Woj, Miami refused to offer Richardson again after initially offering him. That was an example he gave of the deals getting worst. Do you believe Woj's first report that Richardson was offered with Waiters, but choose to deny his recent report that Miami refused to include him subsequently? That's pretty selective, but you can choose what and what not to believe. The bottom line is that Woj very plugged in and has proven to be a highly reliable NBA reporter. You can choose not to believe him, but I think he's earned the trust that I'm putting in his report.

monsterpile wrote:I don't really care that much that we missed out on Josh Richardson. The deal we ended up with is something I would have been fairly happy with weeks ago so...whatever. Thibs job now is more about his coaching. If he doesn't get the job done there he will he fired and will deserve it. Personally I'm intrigued to see how it plays out on the court.

Thibs should have been fired a long time ago based soley on his coaching or solely on his peformance as PBO after he totally botched the Butler situation by ignoring the early warnings and allowing it to explode.

lipoli390 wrote:

sjm34 wrote:Have to say it is a wonderful story, but to say the deals got worse is without merit. We know Miami offered some version of JRich, a bad contract (waiters?) and a protected first round pick. That isn't on par with what we got. If Adebayo was a part of it I would agree with him, but we have no proof of that.

Woj making it sound like a great financial decision makes no sense. Covington and 16-20 mil for Saric is still less than what Butler is looking for on a max deal.

The wolves could still look to move Saric, and I am pretty sure they could get a middle first for him.

According to Woj, Miami refused to offer Richardson again after initially offering him. That was an example he gave of the deals getting worst. Do you believe Woj's first report that Richardson was offered with Waiters, but choose to deny his recent report that Miami refused to include him subsequently? That's pretty selective, but you can choose what and what not to believe. The bottom line is that Woj very plugged in and has proven to be a highly reliable NBA reporter. You can choose not to believe him, but I think he's earned the trust that I'm putting in his report.

To me the offer from Miami didn't get worse it was more that Richardson looked better so they didn't want to give him up. Personally I'd rather have the deal we did anyway even with Richardson doing some good things. A few months from now we could be talking about how Saric is a nice young player on the rise like Richardson.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:I don't really care that much that we missed out on Josh Richardson. The deal we ended up with is something I would have been fairly happy with weeks ago so...whatever. Thibs job now is more about his coaching. If he doesn't get the job done there he will he fired and will deserve it. Personally I'm intrigued to see how it plays out on the court.

Thibs should have been fired a long time ago based soley on his coaching or solely on his peformance as PBO after he totally botched the Butler situation by ignoring the early warnings and allowing it to explode.

Lip, keep in mind that Woj is getting his info from Miami's side and he is going to spin it their way. I have zero problem with the wolves waiting this last couple of weeks, and as I said earlier I still think the deal we got is every bit as good as anything offered that we know about. Woj even stated that Philly wasn't offering up Saric and Covington both before. Of course he also said Brand initially resisted, so which is it. Woj contradicts himself repeatedly.

I would have been much happier with a first rounder in this millenium, and I don't know that Covington fits offensively with Wig. I also question Saric defensively with KAT, but we can't have everything.

lipoli390 wrote:

sjm34 wrote:Have to say it is a wonderful story, but to say the deals got worse is without merit. We know Miami offered some version of JRich, a bad contract (waiters?) and a protected first round pick. That isn't on par with what we got. If Adebayo was a part of it I would agree with him, but we have no proof of that.

Woj making it sound like a great financial decision makes no sense. Covington and 16-20 mil for Saric is still less than what Butler is looking for on a max deal.

The wolves could still look to move Saric, and I am pretty sure they could get a middle first for him.

According to Woj, Miami refused to offer Richardson again after initially offering him. That was an example he gave of the deals getting worst. Do you believe Woj's first report that Richardson was offered with Waiters, but choose to deny his recent report that Miami refused to include him subsequently? That's pretty selective, but you can choose what and what not to believe. The bottom line is that Woj very plugged in and has proven to be a highly reliable NBA reporter. You can choose not to believe him, but I think he's earned the trust that I'm putting in his report.

And a month ago Covington AND Saric were not on the table together and we got both hence the value went up over time in that scenario. Sounds pretty selective to me to only talk about the Miami deal as a way to prove how his value fluctuated when the deal we made literally was an example of his value going up over time.

Thibs has been full of blunders but I take Woj with a grain of salt too. He's seems to get really passive aggressive towards certain teams where I suspect his only sources are agents. Ultimately I think this deal is substantially better than Jason Richardson with a poison pill like waiters.