Minnesota Sports Forum

FNG wrote:

Q-was-here wrote:

D-Mac wrote:

TheFuture wrote:This is laughable. Beyond stupid. That offer doesn't get you KD or Ayton?

Yeah I think this trade shows TC to be both lazy and irresponsible. I think we could have got Ayton for two firsts and he would have been just as good, for longer and also he would be cheaper. I like ayton. He's not as good on defense (still very good) but I think he's better than Rudy on offense. Instead we basically gave up six firsts (that pick swap will likely be worth a first). Besides Ayton, I think there were other ways to get a similar result too (capella for example) I like bold moves, but not when they come off as the lazy and easy answer. I mean did we really have to pay someone 8 mil a year to make his trade for Gobert? TC got taken to the cleaners here. Sure, we'll be a better team next year, and sure I'll still enjoy watching them next year but this was irresponsible.

Gobert is >>Ayton. It's not even close really.

Difficult to have them even in the same conversation, I think. One is a certain future HOFer, the other a good NBA center who struggles to stay on the court.

Their comparative stats show how different they are:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=aytonde01&p1yrfrom=2022&player_id1=goberru01&p2yrfrom=2022&sum=0&request=1

I don't think ayton is as good as Gobert today (sorry, I know it sounded like that), but I do think over the next 4-5 years it'll be pretty close to a wash overall (when factoring both sides of the court). He's younger, his contract would be a lot cheaper, he would cost us a lot less in assets, his timeline fits WAY better with ant and jaden (and even KAT) I think he's a better fit on offense. Im not sure why Phoenix doesn't sign him. I would have gone with this option (or maybe capella) long before doing this trade. I'll definitely go on record saying that. I don't think Ayton is a good today, but over the next few years I think it'll get very very close.

Camden wrote:

D-Loser wrote:

TheFuture wrote:This is laughable. Beyond stupid. That offer doesn't get you KD or Ayton?

Yeah I think this trade shows TC to be both lazy and irresponsible. I think we could have got Ayton for two firsts and he would have been just as good, for longer and also he would be cheaper. I like ayton. He's not as good on defense (still very good) but I think he's better than Rudy on offense. Instead we basically gave up six firsts (that pick swap will likely be worth a first). Besides Ayton, I think there were other ways to get a similar result too (capella for example) I like bold moves, but not when they come off as the lazy and easy answer. I mean did we really have to pay someone 8 mil a year to make his trade for Gobert? TC got taken to the cleaners here. Sure, we'll be a better team next year, and sure I'll still enjoy watching them next year but this was irresponsible.

Deandre Ayton is no where near as productive nor does he impact winning like Rudy Gobert. If you can prove otherwise, I'd be willing to listen.

We can probably agree that the price to acquire would have been less and the contractual obligations are going to be cheaper for Ayton, but Gobert is the significantly better player, and an overall better fit with this core. The Timberwolves would not be contenders with Ayton. I believe that they are with Gobert. And if I had to choose between the two, I would go with Gobert even with the overpay.

Where has Gobert gotten a team to? Has he been devoid of surrounding talent?

TheFuture wrote:

Camden wrote:

D-Loser wrote:

TheFuture wrote:This is laughable. Beyond stupid. That offer doesn't get you KD or Ayton?

Yeah I think this trade shows TC to be both lazy and irresponsible. I think we could have got Ayton for two firsts and he would have been just as good, for longer and also he would be cheaper. I like ayton. He's not as good on defense (still very good) but I think he's better than Rudy on offense. Instead we basically gave up six firsts (that pick swap will likely be worth a first). Besides Ayton, I think there were other ways to get a similar result too (capella for example) I like bold moves, but not when they come off as the lazy and easy answer. I mean did we really have to pay someone 8 mil a year to make his trade for Gobert? TC got taken to the cleaners here. Sure, we'll be a better team next year, and sure I'll still enjoy watching them next year but this was irresponsible.

Deandre Ayton is no where near as productive nor does he impact winning like Rudy Gobert. If you can prove otherwise, I'd be willing to listen.

We can probably agree that the price to acquire would have been less and the contractual obligations are going to be cheaper for Ayton, but Gobert is the significantly better player, and an overall better fit with this core. The Timberwolves would not be contenders with Ayton. I believe that they are with Gobert. And if I had to choose between the two, I would go with Gobert even with the overpay.

Where has Gobert gotten a team to? Has he been devoid of surrounding talent?

We can debate about the assets given up to acquire Rudy Gobert, and whether or not his contract will cripple the financial future of this roster, but we cannot legitimately argue about Gobert's impact on the court. Frankly, I won't waste my time doing so because I find that it would be silly, and that's not a shot aimed at you.

Gobert has been a massive game-changer since he was inserted into Utah's starting lineup years ago. He's only gotten better and added hardware to show for it. The proof is in the pudding with that guy and he's arguably about to play on the best roster of his career in Minnesota.

TheFuture wrote:

Camden wrote:

D-Loser wrote:

TheFuture wrote:This is laughable. Beyond stupid. That offer doesn't get you KD or Ayton?

Yeah I think this trade shows TC to be both lazy and irresponsible. I think we could have got Ayton for two firsts and he would have been just as good, for longer and also he would be cheaper. I like ayton. He's not as good on defense (still very good) but I think he's better than Rudy on offense. Instead we basically gave up six firsts (that pick swap will likely be worth a first). Besides Ayton, I think there were other ways to get a similar result too (capella for example) I like bold moves, but not when they come off as the lazy and easy answer. I mean did we really have to pay someone 8 mil a year to make his trade for Gobert? TC got taken to the cleaners here. Sure, we'll be a better team next year, and sure I'll still enjoy watching them next year but this was irresponsible.

Deandre Ayton is no where near as productive nor does he impact winning like Rudy Gobert. If you can prove otherwise, I'd be willing to listen.

We can probably agree that the price to acquire would have been less and the contractual obligations are going to be cheaper for Ayton, but Gobert is the significantly better player, and an overall better fit with this core. The Timberwolves would not be contenders with Ayton. I believe that they are with Gobert. And if I had to choose between the two, I would go with Gobert even with the overpay.

Where has Gobert gotten a team to? Has he been devoid of surrounding talent?

Camden, I think we just disagree on "significantly". I think Ayton makes us a contender this year also. Is gobert better overall today? Yep. I think Ayton fits better on offense though and still makes us a contender this year. Every time I've seen ayton play I ask myself, is this guy actually better overall than kat and would I trade kat straight up for ayton? So obviously I think Ayton is pretty good.

To me, the timeline argument matters the most when you take from it. I think most were aligned in the idea that Beasley and Vando were not critical to the timeline even though they had a lot of fans here. Many understood they needed to be upgraded from. Everyone understood Beverly wasn't on the timeline. Kessler and Bolmaro could have been IF they reach their potential. By the time they do, Towns might be Gobert's age. How many of those picks are on the timeline? Maybe the 2023 first if it is a homerun pick.

As I alluded to in another post, those in charge of this team seem to believe that Towns and Edwards and maybe DLo have a timeline in the present. I tend to believe the narrative that Gobert was the best gettable guy so to me, if you believe all of this, he is on the timeline. Regardless of how the next 4 years goes, you can have 1 more (4 year) chance with prime Towns and 2 with Edwards. So I see at as 2 bites of the Towns apple starting now and 3 with Ant.

Camden wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

Camden wrote:

D-Loser wrote:

TheFuture wrote:This is laughable. Beyond stupid. That offer doesn't get you KD or Ayton?

Yeah I think this trade shows TC to be both lazy and irresponsible. I think we could have got Ayton for two firsts and he would have been just as good, for longer and also he would be cheaper. I like ayton. He's not as good on defense (still very good) but I think he's better than Rudy on offense. Instead we basically gave up six firsts (that pick swap will likely be worth a first). Besides Ayton, I think there were other ways to get a similar result too (capella for example) I like bold moves, but not when they come off as the lazy and easy answer. I mean did we really have to pay someone 8 mil a year to make his trade for Gobert? TC got taken to the cleaners here. Sure, we'll be a better team next year, and sure I'll still enjoy watching them next year but this was irresponsible.

Deandre Ayton is no where near as productive nor does he impact winning like Rudy Gobert. If you can prove otherwise, I'd be willing to listen.

We can probably agree that the price to acquire would have been less and the contractual obligations are going to be cheaper for Ayton, but Gobert is the significantly better player, and an overall better fit with this core. The Timberwolves would not be contenders with Ayton. I believe that they are with Gobert. And if I had to choose between the two, I would go with Gobert even with the overpay.

Where has Gobert gotten a team to? Has he been devoid of surrounding talent?

We can debate about the assets given up to acquire Rudy Gobert, and whether or not his contract will cripple the financial future of this roster, but we cannot legitimately argue about Gobert's impact on the court. Frankly, I won't waste my time doing so because I find that it would be silly, and that's not a shot aimed at you.

Gobert has been a massive game-changer since he was inserted into Utah's starting lineup years ago. He's only gotten better and added hardware to show for it. The proof is in the pudding with that guy and he's arguably about to play on the best roster of his career in Minnesota.

So that's where you finally draw the line on wasting time huh? :) I don't think anyone is arguing goberts impact on the court, I think it's a question of whether there were similar options for a much better value

Camden wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

Camden wrote:

D-Loser wrote:

TheFuture wrote:This is laughable. Beyond stupid. That offer doesn't get you KD or Ayton?

Yeah I think this trade shows TC to be both lazy and irresponsible. I think we could have got Ayton for two firsts and he would have been just as good, for longer and also he would be cheaper. I like ayton. He's not as good on defense (still very good) but I think he's better than Rudy on offense. Instead we basically gave up six firsts (that pick swap will likely be worth a first). Besides Ayton, I think there were other ways to get a similar result too (capella for example) I like bold moves, but not when they come off as the lazy and easy answer. I mean did we really have to pay someone 8 mil a year to make his trade for Gobert? TC got taken to the cleaners here. Sure, we'll be a better team next year, and sure I'll still enjoy watching them next year but this was irresponsible.

Deandre Ayton is no where near as productive nor does he impact winning like Rudy Gobert. If you can prove otherwise, I'd be willing to listen.

We can probably agree that the price to acquire would have been less and the contractual obligations are going to be cheaper for Ayton, but Gobert is the significantly better player, and an overall better fit with this core. The Timberwolves would not be contenders with Ayton. I believe that they are with Gobert. And if I had to choose between the two, I would go with Gobert even with the overpay.

Where has Gobert gotten a team to? Has he been devoid of surrounding talent?

We can debate about the assets given up to acquire Rudy Gobert, and whether or not his contract will cripple the financial future of this roster, but we cannot legitimately argue about Gobert's impact on the court. Frankly, I won't waste my time doing so because I find that it would be silly, and that's not a shot aimed at you.

Gobert has been a massive game-changer since he was inserted into Utah's starting lineup years ago. He's only gotten better and added hardware to show for it. The proof is in the pudding with that guy and he's arguably about to play on the best roster of his career in Minnesota.

I agree, he does change the game. Ours too. It does make our team better. If it doesn't work, holy shit this is a wild setback.

I want to see the vision work out.

D-Mac wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

Camden wrote:

D-Loser wrote:

TheFuture wrote:This is laughable. Beyond stupid. That offer doesn't get you KD or Ayton?

Yeah I think this trade shows TC to be both lazy and irresponsible. I think we could have got Ayton for two firsts and he would have been just as good, for longer and also he would be cheaper. I like ayton. He's not as good on defense (still very good) but I think he's better than Rudy on offense. Instead we basically gave up six firsts (that pick swap will likely be worth a first). Besides Ayton, I think there were other ways to get a similar result too (capella for example) I like bold moves, but not when they come off as the lazy and easy answer. I mean did we really have to pay someone 8 mil a year to make his trade for Gobert? TC got taken to the cleaners here. Sure, we'll be a better team next year, and sure I'll still enjoy watching them next year but this was irresponsible.

Deandre Ayton is no where near as productive nor does he impact winning like Rudy Gobert. If you can prove otherwise, I'd be willing to listen.

We can probably agree that the price to acquire would have been less and the contractual obligations are going to be cheaper for Ayton, but Gobert is the significantly better player, and an overall better fit with this core. The Timberwolves would not be contenders with Ayton. I believe that they are with Gobert. And if I had to choose between the two, I would go with Gobert even with the overpay.

Where has Gobert gotten a team to? Has he been devoid of surrounding talent?

Camden, I think we just disagree on "significantly". I think Ayton makes us a contender this year also. Is gobert better overall today? Yep. I think Ayton fits better on offense though and still makes us a contender this year. Every time I've seen ayton play I ask myself, is this guy actually better overall than kat and would I trade kat straight up for ayton? So obviously I think Ayton is pretty good.

DL, I agree with you on one point, and partially agree on another. There's no question that Ayton would have cost us fewer assets to get. But while I agree with you that adding him would have made us better, I don't see us becoming a contender with only Ayton as the big splash move. Remember Gobert led Utah to (a normalized) 59 wins in 2020-21 with O'Neal, Bogdonavic, Ingles and Clarkson the other 4 guys playing the most minutes that season. I don't think Utah sniffs 49 games if Ayton were swapped in for Gobert in that scenario.

FNG wrote:

D-Mac wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

Camden wrote:

D-Loser wrote:

TheFuture wrote:This is laughable. Beyond stupid. That offer doesn't get you KD or Ayton?

Yeah I think this trade shows TC to be both lazy and irresponsible. I think we could have got Ayton for two firsts and he would have been just as good, for longer and also he would be cheaper. I like ayton. He's not as good on defense (still very good) but I think he's better than Rudy on offense. Instead we basically gave up six firsts (that pick swap will likely be worth a first). Besides Ayton, I think there were other ways to get a similar result too (capella for example) I like bold moves, but not when they come off as the lazy and easy answer. I mean did we really have to pay someone 8 mil a year to make his trade for Gobert? TC got taken to the cleaners here. Sure, we'll be a better team next year, and sure I'll still enjoy watching them next year but this was irresponsible.

Deandre Ayton is no where near as productive nor does he impact winning like Rudy Gobert. If you can prove otherwise, I'd be willing to listen.

We can probably agree that the price to acquire would have been less and the contractual obligations are going to be cheaper for Ayton, but Gobert is the significantly better player, and an overall better fit with this core. The Timberwolves would not be contenders with Ayton. I believe that they are with Gobert. And if I had to choose between the two, I would go with Gobert even with the overpay.

Where has Gobert gotten a team to? Has he been devoid of surrounding talent?

Camden, I think we just disagree on "significantly". I think Ayton makes us a contender this year also. Is gobert better overall today? Yep. I think Ayton fits better on offense though and still makes us a contender this year. Every time I've seen ayton play I ask myself, is this guy actually better overall than kat and would I trade kat straight up for ayton? So obviously I think Ayton is pretty good.

DL, I agree with you on one point, and partially agree on another. There's no question that Ayton would have cost us fewer assets to get. But while I agree with you that adding him would have made us better, I don't see us becoming a contender with only Ayton as the big splash move. Remember Gobert led Utah to (a normalized) 59 wins in 2020-21 with O'Neal, Bogdonavic, Ingles and Clarkson the other 4 guys playing the most minutes that season. I don't think Utah sniffs 49 games if Ayton were swapped in for Gobert in that scenario.

Yep, I'm going to admit that maybe there's a bigger overall gap than I thought. I feel like Ayton has looked really good against the wolves, but maybe he's not quite that good. I still think there were better values, but I think I underestimated the gap at first.

FNG wrote:

D-Mac wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

Camden wrote:

D-Loser wrote:

TheFuture wrote:This is laughable. Beyond stupid. That offer doesn't get you KD or Ayton?

Yeah I think this trade shows TC to be both lazy and irresponsible. I think we could have got Ayton for two firsts and he would have been just as good, for longer and also he would be cheaper. I like ayton. He's not as good on defense (still very good) but I think he's better than Rudy on offense. Instead we basically gave up six firsts (that pick swap will likely be worth a first). Besides Ayton, I think there were other ways to get a similar result too (capella for example) I like bold moves, but not when they come off as the lazy and easy answer. I mean did we really have to pay someone 8 mil a year to make his trade for Gobert? TC got taken to the cleaners here. Sure, we'll be a better team next year, and sure I'll still enjoy watching them next year but this was irresponsible.

Deandre Ayton is no where near as productive nor does he impact winning like Rudy Gobert. If you can prove otherwise, I'd be willing to listen.

We can probably agree that the price to acquire would have been less and the contractual obligations are going to be cheaper for Ayton, but Gobert is the significantly better player, and an overall better fit with this core. The Timberwolves would not be contenders with Ayton. I believe that they are with Gobert. And if I had to choose between the two, I would go with Gobert even with the overpay.

Where has Gobert gotten a team to? Has he been devoid of surrounding talent?

Camden, I think we just disagree on "significantly". I think Ayton makes us a contender this year also. Is gobert better overall today? Yep. I think Ayton fits better on offense though and still makes us a contender this year. Every time I've seen ayton play I ask myself, is this guy actually better overall than kat and would I trade kat straight up for ayton? So obviously I think Ayton is pretty good.

DL, I agree with you on one point, and partially agree on another. There's no question that Ayton would have cost us fewer assets to get. But while I agree with you that adding him would have made us better, I don't see us becoming a contender with only Ayton as the big splash move. Remember Gobert led Utah to (a normalized) 59 wins in 2020-21 with O'Neal, Bogdonavic, Ingles and Clarkson the other 4 guys playing the most minutes that season. I don't think Utah sniffs 49 games if Ayton were swapped in for Gobert in that scenario.

A few points on the idea that we could have traded for Ayton instead.

1. let's see what he gets paid before we decide how much cheaper he is. My guess is the difference will be around 10 million per year. That's not nothing but it's not a massive difference especially since Gobert is clearly a better player.

2. Ayton is a good player but he is just good on defense. I don't think he anchors a team he is just good but that's only so appealing from a center. I'm not sure how well those guys would have worked on the floor together on that end.

3. Yes Ayton has offense and I believe he has nice upside but I don't think that value of his game really gets maximized playing next to Towns. Honestly Ayton looked terrific a season ago playing a role that looked more like Capela than a super skilled big and he did that well. I have a feeling he wants to do more and the Wolves would not have been a good spot for him to do that.

4. Let's see what assets it takes to acquire him if he is actually dealt.

Would Ayton have made the Wolves better? Sure but he wouldn't be a guy I would have targeted unless the assets were too small to turn down the opportunity. Still like I said before I'm not sure the fit was right.