Minnesota Sports Forum

khans2k5 wrote:These where what I posted from December 14th. I don't feel like finding the updated ones.

Wiggins has seen 25 isolation plays and held opponents to .52 PPP and 27.3% FG shooting in isolation. He's defended the ball handler in the PnR 76 times and held opponents to .70 PPP and 33.9% FG shooting (Rubio is only one better on the team). In 24 post attempts he's holding opponents to .46 PPP and 11.8% FG shooting. In 78 spot up attempts it's .99 PPP and 39.7% FG shooting. In 26 handoffs he's at .96 PPP and 40% FG shooting. In 25 plays off screens he's at .72 PPP and 29.2% FG shooting. He's in the top 89.2% in ISO, 66% in ball handler, 96% post-up, 38.8% spot up, 39% hand-off and 74.7% off screens. So he struggles at two things defensively and yet he's still measured out badly on the defensive side of the ball with advanced metrics. That says to me they put way too much value in stat stuffing.

I'm gonna still give credit to Monster and Long for that stuff though, ok?

_______

With Wiggins being elite. And Rubio being elite. And Garnett being elite. And Towns being good. And Prince being good. And LaVine working really hard...

Is it all Sam Mitchell's, Kevin Martin's and Gorgui Dieng's fault that the team is in the bottom 1/3 of the league defensively?

Q12543 wrote:There is a bunch of data on NBA.com that supports the view that Wiggins is a very good one-on-one defender.

The issue is that defense is a lot more than simply slowing down or stopping your own guy. What about securing defensive rebounds? What about drawing charges? What about getting deflections? He's below average to just plain bad in what I would call the "team defensive" categories. When he's out there with KAT, Rubio, KG, and Prince, he is part of a darn-near elite defensive unit. But don't expect him to be a defensive anchor in the same mold of Kawhi Leonard, who does the isolation defense AND gets rebounds, deflections, and creates turnovers.

I think this is a fair take. But as Natasha Bedengfeld sings, the book is still unwritten.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:These where what I posted from December 14th. I don't feel like finding the updated ones.

Wiggins has seen 25 isolation plays and held opponents to .52 PPP and 27.3% FG shooting in isolation. He's defended the ball handler in the PnR 76 times and held opponents to .70 PPP and 33.9% FG shooting (Rubio is only one better on the team). In 24 post attempts he's holding opponents to .46 PPP and 11.8% FG shooting. In 78 spot up attempts it's .99 PPP and 39.7% FG shooting. In 26 handoffs he's at .96 PPP and 40% FG shooting. In 25 plays off screens he's at .72 PPP and 29.2% FG shooting. He's in the top 89.2% in ISO, 66% in ball handler, 96% post-up, 38.8% spot up, 39% hand-off and 74.7% off screens. So he struggles at two things defensively and yet he's still measured out badly on the defensive side of the ball with advanced metrics. That says to me they put way too much value in stat stuffing.

I'm gonna still give credit to Monster and Long for that stuff though, ok?

_______

With Wiggins being elite. And Rubio being elite. And Garnett being elite. And Towns being good. And Prince being good. And LaVine working really hard...

Is it all Sam Mitchell's, Kevin Martin's and Gorgui Dieng's fault that the team is in the bottom 1/3 of the league defensively?

If they bring the effort and intensity they showed the other night, they won't be in the bottom third for long. Can't wait to see how they follow up that effort tonight.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:These where what I posted from December 14th. I don't feel like finding the updated ones.

Wiggins has seen 25 isolation plays and held opponents to .52 PPP and 27.3% FG shooting in isolation. He's defended the ball handler in the PnR 76 times and held opponents to .70 PPP and 33.9% FG shooting (Rubio is only one better on the team). In 24 post attempts he's holding opponents to .46 PPP and 11.8% FG shooting. In 78 spot up attempts it's .99 PPP and 39.7% FG shooting. In 26 handoffs he's at .96 PPP and 40% FG shooting. In 25 plays off screens he's at .72 PPP and 29.2% FG shooting. He's in the top 89.2% in ISO, 66% in ball handler, 96% post-up, 38.8% spot up, 39% hand-off and 74.7% off screens. So he struggles at two things defensively and yet he's still measured out badly on the defensive side of the ball with advanced metrics. That says to me they put way too much value in stat stuffing.

I'm gonna still give credit to Monster and Long for that stuff though, ok?

_______

With Wiggins being elite. And Rubio being elite. And Garnett being elite. And Towns being good. And Prince being good. And LaVine working really hard...

Is it all Sam Mitchell's, Kevin Martin's and Gorgui Dieng's fault that the team is in the bottom 1/3 of the league defensively?

I believe we have two elite/borderline elite defensive players: KG and Rubio. But KG only plays part-time minutes and Rubio can only do so much from the PG position.

KAT is not as good defensively as his box score metrics indicate. It's a classic rookie/little things issue with him, but I by no means consider him elite or even very good defensively. He's OK and does well when surrounded by other very good/OK defenders.

Prince is like Wiggins in that he can play good individual defense plus has the luxury of ONLY having to do that since he's minimally involved on offense, so his advanced stats might make him look better than Wiggins, but my guess is that Wiggins would look just as good if he didn't have to be relied on so much offensively. Of course "the greats" eventually could do both at the same time.

So yeah, when you put those 5 guys on the court together, they sort of fit together into a complete defensive unit. But once KG is taken out - and then Prince or Rubio - it falls apart like a house of cards because look who is coming in for them: Bazz, Payne, Dieng, Bjelica, Jones, Miller, LaVine.....All of these guys struggle defensively (some more than others).

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:These where what I posted from December 14th. I don't feel like finding the updated ones.

Wiggins has seen 25 isolation plays and held opponents to .52 PPP and 27.3% FG shooting in isolation. He's defended the ball handler in the PnR 76 times and held opponents to .70 PPP and 33.9% FG shooting (Rubio is only one better on the team). In 24 post attempts he's holding opponents to .46 PPP and 11.8% FG shooting. In 78 spot up attempts it's .99 PPP and 39.7% FG shooting. In 26 handoffs he's at .96 PPP and 40% FG shooting. In 25 plays off screens he's at .72 PPP and 29.2% FG shooting. He's in the top 89.2% in ISO, 66% in ball handler, 96% post-up, 38.8% spot up, 39% hand-off and 74.7% off screens. So he struggles at two things defensively and yet he's still measured out badly on the defensive side of the ball with advanced metrics. That says to me they put way too much value in stat stuffing.

I'm gonna still give credit to Monster and Long for that stuff though, ok?

_______

With Wiggins being elite. And Rubio being elite. And Garnett being elite. And Towns being good. And Prince being good. And LaVine working really hard...

Is it all Sam Mitchell's, Kevin Martin's and Gorgui Dieng's fault that the team is in the bottom 1/3 of the league defensively?

If they bring the effort and intensity they showed the other night, they won't be in the bottom third for long. Can't wait to see how they follow up that effort tonight.

What if the other team(s) brings more effort and intensity than the Spurs did though?

I think that game was fairly close for two reasons: The Wolves played better than in many other games this season, with good intensity. The Spurs did not play as well and I think the relative lack of intensity might have helped inspire Popovich to get tossed.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:If he hasn't seen Wiggins shut down opposing stars, he hasn't been watching very closely. It's happened time and time again,.

Fair enough. Can you share some examples? Also... what are your thoughts on the advanced stats indicating that Wiggins is not even an average defender? Is it only because of the relative lack of steals and blocks? Are there areas he can improve?

Not being facetious... I'm intrigued by the Wiggins is a good defender argument. I see moments of that, too... but is it because those are more memorable? Or, because I WANT to see them so badly?

Abe - I've seen many moments where Wiggins shut his guy down defensively. But I've also seen many moments when his guy gets around him and scores far too easily. Ultimately stats tell the tale and Wiggins defensive stats speak for themselves. If you're not blocking shots, forcing turnovers or grabbing defensive rebounds, you're not going to show well in advanced defensive stats. And unless you shut your guy down almost all the time every game, you can't be a good much less great defender without providing steals, blocks or defensive rebounds.

As long-suffering Wolves fans, we get really excited at a great new talent who puts on a Wolves jersey. And we all tend in varying degrees to see and believe want we want to see while often defensively rejecting fact-based criticism as we point to the player's youth. I know I did that with Ricky, pointing to his youth and holding steadfastly to my belief that his shooting would substantially improve. Alas, I have finally come to the realization that Ricky will always be a poor shooter. Thankfully, he is very good to elite in multiple other areas - passing/assists, defense/steals, rebounding -- all of which can be verified objectively in his stats. The eye test also shows Ricky to be an extremely smart player who directs his teammates on the floor and a highly intense passionate player who gives everything he's got all the time.

Wiggins has already proven to be a very good scorer with a knack for drawing fouls. But unfortunately, that's all he's shown thus far statistically. He's a phenomenal athlete with excellent length and incredible body control. He's developed a nice Euro step and he strikes me as a pretty smart player. So therein lies the potential, which is still tremendous. Now we watch and hope for his physical gifts to start showing up statistically in other than PPG. But there are a number of red flags that call into question his ability to become anything close to a great player:

1. Consistently failing to fill any stat line other than PPG. The truly great NBA players consistently excel in multiple statistical areas. Jordan (scoring, steals, and even rebounding at his position), Duncan (scoring, blocks, rebounding). The list goes on - excellence not in one or even two areas, but in three. And p Wiggins

Lip, while I think you didn't complete all your thoughts, I am with you 100% on your analysis.

Now people will say, "but he's still so young!" and that's true. But many of the things missing from his game are things that historically show up right away. Guys good at creating turnovers and getting steals in the NBA were good at that in college and as rookies. Great rebounders show that skill right away. High-motor players were always high-motor players. In that regard, we need to face up to the fact that it's highly unlikely Wiggins is going to become a jack-of-all trades all around wing.

BUT.....players CAN get better at things like shooting, post moves, in-between game, free throws, etc. Wiggins has already proven that he can score consistently in high volume. If he can work on being more efficient by improving his 3-point shot (especially), he could still be a really, really good 2-way player.

Hey Abe, Rodney Hood was 1-13 tonight, guarded for most of the night by - you guessed it.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Hey Abe, Rodney Hood was 1-13 tonight, guarded for most of the night by - you guessed it.

Wig and Tay were terrific on defense tonight. I'm not positive, but I think Hayward only had one of his 14 points off of Prince.

6th youngest to get to 2000 pts in the 4th fewest games. Others in the group are Melo, Lebron, Kobe, Dwight and KD. I'm not disappointed.