Q12543 wrote:Ultimately the +/- stuff has to be looked at over a long time frame since it's a really noisy stat with 4 other team mates on the floor with whatever player you are trying to evaluate. But Tyus has consistently been among the team leaders in this stat since the 2016-17 season. So we are talking about 100+ games at this point. He must be doing something right!
It's clear that starting in the pre-season, he's been looking to create more offense for himself. This to me is what holds him back from being a true full time starting caliber PG and he knows it. So he's out to prove to himself and others that he can create offense for himself. It hasn't been going too well....
To be fair... it also has to take the other team's 5 best players into account. I know that's a large enough sample size... but let's say that a guy like Tyus never played vs. another team's top 2 rotations...
Yes, that is quite true; context matters. What we know is that as a primary backup PG, he is very effective. He actually did quite well as our starter for Teague in a handful of games last year, but he had a solid creator in Butler playing alongside him.
Q12543 wrote:Ultimately the +/- stuff has to be looked at over a long time frame since it's a really noisy stat with 4 other team mates on the floor with whatever player you are trying to evaluate. But Tyus has consistently been among the team leaders in this stat since the 2016-17 season. So we are talking about 100+ games at this point. He must be doing something right!
It's clear that starting in the pre-season, he's been looking to create more offense for himself. This to me is what holds him back from being a true full time starting caliber PG and he knows it. So he's out to prove to himself and others that he can create offense for himself. It hasn't been going too well....
To be fair... it also has to take the other team's 5 best players into account. I know that's a large enough sample size... but let's say that a guy like Tyus never played vs. another team's top 2 rotations...
Yes, that is quite true; context matters. What we know is that as a primary backup PG, he is very effective. He actually did quite well as our starter for Teague in a handful of games last year, but he had a solid creator in Butler playing alongside him.
A couple of his teammates have said they have told him to be more aggressive in practice and look to shoot more. I think that means that guys are pulling for him but they also see that he might have some actual game to get those looks. I think he has or can have enough deception with his dribble moves to get some looks if he picks his spots. Last night I thought he picked some good spots he just had trouble when he got to the rim and Aldridge had that big block on him. What isn't talked about in this game here was........ZERO 3's. I think everyone would like to see that volume go up.
A few days ago I listened to David Griffin on woj's podcast from last spring and at one point they talked about Steve Nash back on the Suns playing against Jason Kidd in practice. Griffin said that was a particularly physical challenge for Nash because even in practice Kidd was pretty competitive and take it to him. He also said at one point they had Kidd Nash AND Kevin Johnson so Nash had some tough matchups in practice. It was a fun listen.
monsterpile wrote:There is angst out there about arise playing 31 minutes and yeah it's too many BUT I'll say this if he is gonna play with that kind of hustle and energy I'm kinda ok with rewarding that with some run. How good or bad his defense was in his game is...whatever but there is no way he was anywhere near the level of bad Crawford was. Rose was at least getting into his guy and his athletism shows up at times contesting shots or rebounds etc. He took too many shots but he also did have some possessions he drove and kicked which opened up 3 point shots for guys. If the energy and effort is gonna be there then the question is how much can he pick his spots vs just go in Derrick Rose mode. I know aim more positive about his possible contributions than most but I saw a bit there from him in this game that was actually encouraging. I think we will see Okogie get some opportunities.
Meh. I get what you're saying and I can respect it, absolutely, but if energy/hustle/effort is what we want with those 20-25 minutes then I'd much rather them go to Okogie. He's a much more capable defender than Rose and he'll play within himself offensively -- something Rose doesn't know how to do. Rose still thinks he's a good scoring option and he's not.
monsterpile wrote:There is angst out there about arise playing 31 minutes and yeah it's too many BUT I'll say this if he is gonna play with that kind of hustle and energy I'm kinda ok with rewarding that with some run. How good or bad his defense was in his game is...whatever but there is no way he was anywhere near the level of bad Crawford was. Rose was at least getting into his guy and his athletism shows up at times contesting shots or rebounds etc. He took too many shots but he also did have some possessions he drove and kicked which opened up 3 point shots for guys. If the energy and effort is gonna be there then the question is how much can he pick his spots vs just go in Derrick Rose mode. I know aim more positive about his possible contributions than most but I saw a bit there from him in this game that was actually encouraging. I think we will see Okogie get some opportunities.
Meh. I get what you're saying and I can respect it, absolutely, but if energy/hustle/effort is what we want with those 20-25 minutes then I'd much rather them go to Okogie. He's a much more capable defender than Rose and he'll play within himself offensively -- something Rose doesn't know how to do. Rose still thinks he's a good scoring option and he's not.
I agree with you on Okogie should get the minutes of all Rose ends up offering is hustle and mediocre offensive game. I think he still has skills IF........harnessed and selected could be quite useful. There is plenty of eveidence the other way and I realize that's much better way to expect what you get out of him. Let's be honest we don't even k ow if this play hard and with energy will even last with him. It's kinda cool to see that to some extent he is fighting for his career.
I think Rose still has skills to help a team win in a bench role. I'm not so confident that Thibs has the foresight to bench him when it's not working though. I really want Okogie to get some PT and find it hard to believe there isn't any space for him to sneak in the second unit when our lack of length there is clearly an issue. My ideal situation is that Josh would get big minutes based on matchup, but Thibs just doesn't seem to coach his rotations that way.
thedoper wrote:I think Rose still has skills to help a team win in a bench role. I'm not so confident that Thibs has the foresight to bench him when it's not working though. I really want Okogie to get some PT and find it hard to believe there isn't any space for him to sneak in the second unit when our lack of length there is clearly an issue. My ideal situation is that Josh would get big minutes based on matchup, but Thibs just doesn't seem to coach his rotations that way.
It's the first time he has played as a SG and as a bench player from the start. I agree with your thoughts on matchups. At least in game 1 he was mixing and matching starters with bench guys a lot more than he did much of last year so that's something right?
thedoper wrote:I think Rose still has skills to help a team win in a bench role. I'm not so confident that Thibs has the foresight to bench him when it's not working though. I really want Okogie to get some PT and find it hard to believe there isn't any space for him to sneak in the second unit when our lack of length there is clearly an issue. My ideal situation is that Josh would get big minutes based on matchup, but Thibs just doesn't seem to coach his rotations that way.
Agreed Doper. I didn't get to watch but noticed Rose played 32 minutes. That's ridiculous. Okogie should be getting some burn based on his preseason.
Just finished watching the game and am surprised at the overall satisfaction with the moral victory. I say fuck that! The spurs haven't been picked to even make the PO's and then lost their starting PG for the season. We should have won that game going away.
If you go on the ESPN wolves page, you would think Jimmy carried the team. Every story starts with what Jimmy did. I thought it was a terrible game for him, and I don't want to hear about rust. He gambled all night on D for steals, and left our defense with their ass hanging out doing it. Jimmy took 23 shots and 5 trips to the line to get 23 pts. That is not efficient at all.
Q, you mentioned wanting more efficiency from Wig, but I would argue he can't give that to you while we have Teague and Jimmy throwing him the ball late in the shot clock for contested shots. I thought Wig's D was excellent last night, particularly considering he now has two Gorgui's to make up for with Tolliver on the floor.
Gorgui's D was atrocious last night again, and he was abused on the boards. If he was making 5 mil, I would say he had a good game, but his numbers pale in comparison to what I expect out of a 15mil player with no defensive skills. If we can dump him with a first, I'd do it if we aren't going into a partial rebuild.
Thibs has got to go, he has no idea of what it takes to win.
Just finished watching the game and am surprised at the overall satisfaction with the moral victory. I say fuck that! The spurs haven't been picked to even make the PO's and then lost their starting PG for the season. We should have won that game going away.
If you go on the ESPN wolves page, you would think Jimmy carried the team. Every story starts with what Jimmy did. I thought it was a terrible game for him, and I don't want to hear about rust. He gambled all night on D for steals, and left our defense with their ass hanging out doing it. Jimmy took 23 shots and 5 trips to the line to get 23 pts. That is not efficient at all.
Q, you mentioned wanting more efficiency from Wig, but I would argue he can't give that to you while we have Teague and Jimmy throwing him the ball late in the shot clock for contested shots. I thought Wig's D was excellent last night, particularly considering he now has two Gorgui's to make up for with Tolliver on the floor.
Gorgui's D was atrocious last night again, and he was abused on the boards. If he was making 5 mil, I would say he had a good game, but his numbers pale in comparison to what I expect out of a 15mil player with no defensive skills. If we can dump him with a first, I'd do it if we aren't going into a partial rebuild.
Thibs has got to go, he has no idea of what it takes to win.
I agree with most of this post. I guess Gorgui v salary is a fair argument, but I thought G was bringing some good energy overall. Everything else I am with you. I wasn't impressed with Jimmy's D at all and I think it's pretty depressing that a guy can skip the preseason, rip his team and teammates, then take 23 shots at the expense of the team. Overall, I didn't see a moral victory in anyway either. Thibs can't give Jimmy this much slack and have Towns give that kind of effort. There are still huge issues in the dynamic of those 3. It's worrisome.
thedoper wrote:I think Rose still has skills to help a team win in a bench role. I'm not so confident that Thibs has the foresight to bench him when it's not working though. I really want Okogie to get some PT and find it hard to believe there isn't any space for him to sneak in the second unit when our lack of length there is clearly an issue. My ideal situation is that Josh would get big minutes based on matchup, but Thibs just doesn't seem to coach his rotations that way.
Agreed Doper. I didn't get to watch but noticed Rose played 32 minutes. That's ridiculous. Okogie should be getting some burn based on his preseason.
He did mix matchups, but in game 1 I don't see how you need to go only 9 deep against San Antonio. Especially with Jimmy having no preseason. It's sad.
