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Re: G2 Playoffs Baby! Wolves vs Rockets GTD

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:10 pm
by TAFKASP
AbeVigodaLive wrote:I did NOT expect this much negativity as we've seen almost all season from a squad that went 47 - 35. Not saying it's not granted at times... but it'll be interesting if that optimism many had even in those down years is gone forever or if it's just a case of trying to adjust to following a team with expectations...


What percentage of those 47 wins were so ugly that the majority of the discussion afterwards revolved around how lucky they were not to lose? What percentage of those 35 losses were to team whose talent is inferior to the Wolves? At no point this season did they ever have a group of games that suggested they were gelling together as a team.

I guess the bottom line for me is there is little or nothing about this season which suggests better days are ahead. At every level, management, coaching, and players there is reason to fear that the ceiling for their success is pathetically low given the assets the team once possessed. My hope for this teams future is pretty close to depleted which is why I have a really hard time looking for silver linings.

Re: G2 Playoffs Baby! Wolves vs Rockets GTD

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:30 pm
by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
TheSP wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:I did NOT expect this much negativity as we've seen almost all season from a squad that went 47 - 35. Not saying it's not granted at times... but it'll be interesting if that optimism many had even in those down years is gone forever or if it's just a case of trying to adjust to following a team with expectations...


What percentage of those 47 wins were so ugly that the majority of the discussion afterwards revolved around how lucky they were not to lose? What percentage of those 35 losses were to team whose talent is inferior to the Wolves? At no point this season did they ever have a group of games that suggested they were gelling together as a team.

I guess the bottom line for me is there is little or nothing about this season which suggests better days are ahead. At every level, management, coaching, and players there is reason to fear that the ceiling for their success is pathetically low given the assets the team once possessed. My hope for this teams future is pretty close to depleted which is why I have a really hard time looking for silver linings.


We had the 4th best home record in the conference and tied with GS and Utah for 2nd in conference W-L. We had like every tie breaker there was outside of the Spurs who we actually tied with and that was because we beat so many of these other teams in the playoffs outside of the Rockets and Warriors. We had the best record within our division at 10-6 meaning we beat the teams we played the most. Get out of here with this idea that nothing positive happened this year. Name one team above us in the West who have 2 of their 3 best players 23 or under. Oh wait there isn't one. Donovan Mitchell is literally the only other young asset in the playoffs in the West that fits that profile. Everyone else is in their prime. So tell me how we aren't setup well for the future when we have 2 of the 3 best players 23 and under on a Western Conference playoff team this year. We're ahead of all the other young studs in the West because our guys are experiencing playoff basketball now and not next year, or the year after, or the year after that. Our title hopes are not on Jimmy and these other vets. They're on Wiggins and Towns who are still 2 full years away before they even hit what would be the start of their prime basketball years.

Re: G2 Playoffs Baby! Wolves vs Rockets GTD

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:08 pm
by TAFKASP
khans2k5 wrote:
TheSP wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:I did NOT expect this much negativity as we've seen almost all season from a squad that went 47 - 35. Not saying it's not granted at times... but it'll be interesting if that optimism many had even in those down years is gone forever or if it's just a case of trying to adjust to following a team with expectations...


What percentage of those 47 wins were so ugly that the majority of the discussion afterwards revolved around how lucky they were not to lose? What percentage of those 35 losses were to team whose talent is inferior to the Wolves? At no point this season did they ever have a group of games that suggested they were gelling together as a team.

I guess the bottom line for me is there is little or nothing about this season which suggests better days are ahead. At every level, management, coaching, and players there is reason to fear that the ceiling for their success is pathetically low given the assets the team once possessed. My hope for this teams future is pretty close to depleted which is why I have a really hard time looking for silver linings.


We had the 4th best home record in the conference and tied with GS and Utah for 2nd in conference W-L. We had like every tie breaker there was outside of the Spurs who we actually tied with and that was because we beat so many of these other teams in the playoffs outside of the Rockets and Warriors. We had the best record within our division at 10-6 meaning we beat the teams we played the most. Get out of here with this idea that nothing positive happened this year. Name one team above us in the West who have 2 of their 3 best players 23 or under. Oh wait there isn't one. Donovan Mitchell is literally the only other young asset in the playoffs in the West that fits that profile. Everyone else is in their prime. So tell me how we aren't setup well for the future when we have 2 of the 3 best players 23 and under on a Western Conference playoff team this year. We're ahead of all the other young studs in the West because our guys are experiencing playoff basketball now and not next year, or the year after, or the year after that. Our title hopes are not on Jimmy and these other vets. They're on Wiggins and Towns who are still 2 full years away before they even hit what would be the start of their prime basketball years.


I hope your are correct, but it didn't feel like they were that good so much as other teams were just as mediocre.

Re: G2 Playoffs Baby! Wolves vs Rockets GTD

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:40 pm
by BloopOracle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjxSMEhWNPA

another brutal attack on Towns by Stephen A Smith on First take, talks about how Town's mom always makes him apologize because Stephen thought Okafor was the better prospect and then goes on to say even his dad would agree that Towns look awful and that the word is watching and he looks soft etc

Re: G2 Playoffs Baby! Wolves vs Rockets GTD

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:58 pm
by Monster
TheSP wrote:
khans2k5 wrote:
TheSP wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:I did NOT expect this much negativity as we've seen almost all season from a squad that went 47 - 35. Not saying it's not granted at times... but it'll be interesting if that optimism many had even in those down years is gone forever or if it's just a case of trying to adjust to following a team with expectations...


What percentage of those 47 wins were so ugly that the majority of the discussion afterwards revolved around how lucky they were not to lose? What percentage of those 35 losses were to team whose talent is inferior to the Wolves? At no point this season did they ever have a group of games that suggested they were gelling together as a team.

I guess the bottom line for me is there is little or nothing about this season which suggests better days are ahead. At every level, management, coaching, and players there is reason to fear that the ceiling for their success is pathetically low given the assets the team once possessed. My hope for this teams future is pretty close to depleted which is why I have a really hard time looking for silver linings.


We had the 4th best home record in the conference and tied with GS and Utah for 2nd in conference W-L. We had like every tie breaker there was outside of the Spurs who we actually tied with and that was because we beat so many of these other teams in the playoffs outside of the Rockets and Warriors. We had the best record within our division at 10-6 meaning we beat the teams we played the most. Get out of here with this idea that nothing positive happened this year. Name one team above us in the West who have 2 of their 3 best players 23 or under. Oh wait there isn't one. Donovan Mitchell is literally the only other young asset in the playoffs in the West that fits that profile. Everyone else is in their prime. So tell me how we aren't setup well for the future when we have 2 of the 3 best players 23 and under on a Western Conference playoff team this year. We're ahead of all the other young studs in the West because our guys are experiencing playoff basketball now and not next year, or the year after, or the year after that. Our title hopes are not on Jimmy and these other vets. They're on Wiggins and Towns who are still 2 full years away before they even hit what would be the start of their prime basketball years.


I hope your are correct, but it didn't feel like they were that good so much as other teams were just as mediocre.


I'd say the Iowa Wolves first season was a success especially considering the season Amile Jefferson had.

So this team won ugly. What if they started coming together more in year 2 and looked less ugly? Of the 9 players that played legit minutes for this team 4 were new to the roster. The other 5 guys were comprised of Dieng, Belly (third year player in the league coming off a foot surgery) and 3 guys the oldest just turned 23 in February. Sure you can say this is all an excuse and other coaches integrated their rosters better etc but there is some real possible chance that this group plus some added talent could be better than this year. Having one 3 game losing streak and never losing more than 2 in a row the rest of the season has to be impressive. Of course you can say the same about some other western conference teams but as we know as Wolves fans...sometimes those teams don't progress the way you think they would. Butler and Towns is a pretty good combo and the rest of the roster certainly isn't bare.

Re: G2 Playoffs Baby! Wolves vs Rockets GTD

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:31 pm
by Lipoli390
monsterpile wrote:The lack of optimism here isn't surprising. It's sad how for years we used it all up on a for the most part bunch of guys that didn't deserve it. And guys that probably did are either gone or retired etc. I think most people are looking for the bad stuff. It's understandable. I've seen some positives that nobody seems interested in while mentioning every bad possession and yes the bad possessions are certainly there.

Personally I see a path to be the next Rockets team that looked kinda mired in whatever and then a couple years later are basically a stacked team looking like real title favorites. The Wolves have to improve internally (Q made a good case in another thread for a Tyus being a piece to watch) and also add to their roster. The Rockets took a chance on Eric Gordon staying healthy. Damn that has worked out brilliantly so far. So well that they could trade away a player like Lou Williams and not notice. The Wolves need to add a player or 2 this next offseason and continue improving. You never know what player may fall into their lap a few months from now. There are paths to the next level. I get it if nobody has faith we can get there after all the shitty years we have endured but I'm looking forward to finding out. Yes this team isn't there now but I also feel like these last 2 games we are actually closer than I thought we would be. Last night we left 10-20 points on easy buckets guys usually make. Sure the Rockets didn't score either AND are playing without 2 solid rotation players.

Gerald Green. People are upset that we didn't add him and honestly I was a bit confused why he was available for so long. Think about this:

The Warriors are paying Nick Young over 5 million plus the luxury tax when they could have had Gerald Green for the min which is supplemented by the league and saved a bunch on Lux tax. Which player would you rather have right now? I'd take Gerald Green regardless of the money. Even the supposed smart teams can do stuff that's dumb. Nick Young should thank Luke Walton for getting him the last decent contract he may ever see in the NBA.


Excellent post, Monster. Your post provides a healthy and solid perspective on the Wolves situation. I agree that we have a foundation in place to take the next step with KAT, Butler, Wiggins, Taj and Tyus. Those are the five core guys as I see it. But as you indicated, it will take a couple of smart player-personnel moves to get there. I would add that we'll also have to see further improvement individually from KAT and Wiggins. I suspect you'd agree with that. I happen to believe it will take a very different coaching approach, which I don't think we'll ever get from Thibs, but I suspect you disagree and you may be right.

A lot of us get caught up sometimes in pointing fingers at individual players. I've done that with Wiggins before and I see some folks doing that with KAT based on these last two games. But that myopic focus many of us are guilty of lacks the perspective we need to accurately assess this team's core problems and potential. We're clearly not close to being a championship caliber team right now. But as you noted, a couple savvy player-personnel moves can make a big difference in an NBA team's trajectory. Add improvement from a couple 23 year olds and suddenly you're at that next level.

As for KAT and Wiggins, both improved in various ways this season. Wiggins improved defensively and, while his stats don't clearly show it, I think he improved his rebounding as well. The fact that Butler and Taj have publicly raved about the things Wiggins does in practice on the offensive end, tells me there's still a lot of hope for improvement from him on that side of the ball. KAT improved defensively the second half of the season and actually played pretty well defensively last night. I'm not worried about his offense. He was a 20+ efficient scorer with 12 boards a game over 82 games in each of the last two seasons. He didn't suddenly become a bad offensive player in the last two games. He's played poorly on that end and he needs to find a way to get out of his funk. He has a 160-game track suggesting it's highly likely he will.

As for KAT's performance the last two games, he's been terrible on the offensive end both games, but good defensively in the second game. But Jimmy Butler hasn't exactly played like an allstar either, much less like a top 10 players in the League. You'd never guess that Teague was once an allstar if last night's game was the first time you saw him play. So these two losses have been team losses by a team not ready to compete against a championship caliber team.

A lot of people on this board -- not me initially :) -- wanted the Wolves to make the playoffs even if it meant getting crushed in 4 games by the Rockets in the first round. Their reason was that our young guys needed the experience to learn what playoff basketball is all about. Well, KAT's learning. He's learning that he has to do more and do things differently when he's the focal point of a championship caliber opponent's defense in the intense atmosphere of playoff basketball where defenders are allowed to pound on him even more than usual. And as everyone on this Board should know, part of learning is failing. In fact, failure is typically the best teacher. As for those who question his effort, go watch him play live in 80 games as I have over the past two seasons. Watch him engage in a perpetual wrestling match, fighting for position on nearly every single possession as he's pushed, held and elbowed by the biggest, strongest athletes in the NBA. Watch him get open for brief moments but never get the ball from our shoot-first PG. You'd see he doesnt have effort issues. He has judgment issues -- i.e., making bad decisions, and maturity issues -- complaining to refs rather than running the floor. Those issues have to be corrected and I think they will be because KAT's competitive nature will drive him to fix those issues -- provided he's guided effectively by his coaching staff and veteran players. I have no doubt that Butler and Taj will hold him accountable and teach him what he needs to know.

I'd like to see the Wolves at least make it reasonably close in one of not both of these next two gams at home. But ultimately this team has work to do to get to that next level. Our front office will need to deliver this summer with savvy personnel moves. Our young guys will need to improve their games with hard work over the summer. And, in my view, our head coach will have to take a long look in the mirror and make some changes in his approach. I have my doubts. But as you point out effectively, Monster, there is legitimate reason be hopeful.

Re: G2 Playoffs Baby! Wolves vs Rockets GTD

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:58 pm
by Monster
lipoli390 wrote:
monsterpile wrote:The lack of optimism here isn't surprising. It's sad how for years we used it all up on a for the most part bunch of guys that didn't deserve it. And guys that probably did are either gone or retired etc. I think most people are looking for the bad stuff. It's understandable. I've seen some positives that nobody seems interested in while mentioning every bad possession and yes the bad possessions are certainly there.

Personally I see a path to be the next Rockets team that looked kinda mired in whatever and then a couple years later are basically a stacked team looking like real title favorites. The Wolves have to improve internally (Q made a good case in another thread for a Tyus being a piece to watch) and also add to their roster. The Rockets took a chance on Eric Gordon staying healthy. Damn that has worked out brilliantly so far. So well that they could trade away a player like Lou Williams and not notice. The Wolves need to add a player or 2 this next offseason and continue improving. You never know what player may fall into their lap a few months from now. There are paths to the next level. I get it if nobody has faith we can get there after all the shitty years we have endured but I'm looking forward to finding out. Yes this team isn't there now but I also feel like these last 2 games we are actually closer than I thought we would be. Last night we left 10-20 points on easy buckets guys usually make. Sure the Rockets didn't score either AND are playing without 2 solid rotation players.

Gerald Green. People are upset that we didn't add him and honestly I was a bit confused why he was available for so long. Think about this:

The Warriors are paying Nick Young over 5 million plus the luxury tax when they could have had Gerald Green for the min which is supplemented by the league and saved a bunch on Lux tax. Which player would you rather have right now? I'd take Gerald Green regardless of the money. Even the supposed smart teams can do stuff that's dumb. Nick Young should thank Luke Walton for getting him the last decent contract he may ever see in the NBA.


Excellent post, Monster. Your post provides a healthy and solid perspective on the Wolves situation. I agree that we have a foundation in place to take the next step with KAT, Butler, Wiggins, Taj and Tyus. Those are the five core guys as I see it. But as you indicated, it will take a couple of smart player-personnel moves to get there. I would add that we'll also have to see further improvement individually from KAT and Wiggins. I suspect you'd agree with that. I happen to believe it will take a very different coaching approach, which I don't think we'll ever get from Thibs, but I suspect you disagree and you may be right.

A lot of us get caught up sometimes in pointing fingers at individual players. I've done that with Wiggins before and I see some folks doing that with KAT based on these last two games. But that myopic focus many of us are guilty of lacks the perspective we need to accurately assess this team's core problems and potential. We're clearly not close to being a championship caliber team right now. But as you noted, a couple savvy player-personnel moves can make a big difference in an NBA team's trajectory. Add improvement from a couple 23 year olds and suddenly you're at that next level.

As for KAT and Wiggins, both improved in various ways this season. Wiggins improved defensively and, while his stats don't clearly show it, I think he improved his rebounding as well. The fact that Butler and Taj have publicly raved about the things Wiggins does in practice on the offensive end, tells me there's still a lot of hope for improvement from him on that side of the ball. KAT improved defensively the second half of the season and actually played pretty well defensively last night. I'm not worried about his offense. He was a 20+ efficient scorer with 12 boards a game over 82 games in each of the last two seasons. He didn't suddenly become a bad offensive player in the last two games. He's played poorly on that end and he needs to find a way to get out of his funk. He has a 160-game track suggesting it's highly likely he will.

As for KAT's performance the last two games, he's been terrible on the offensive end both games, but good defensively in the second game. But Jimmy Butler hasn't exactly played like an allstar either, much less like a top 10 players in the League. You'd never guess that Teague was once an allstar if last night's game was the first time you saw him play. So these two losses have been team losses by a team not ready to compete against a championship caliber team.

A lot of people on this board -- not me initially :) -- wanted the Wolves to make the playoffs even if it meant getting crushed in 4 games by the Rockets in the first round. Their reason was that our young guys needed the experience to learn what playoff basketball is all about. Well, KAT's learning. He's learning that he has to do more and do things differently when he's the focal point of a championship caliber opponent's defense in the intense atmosphere of playoff basketball where defenders are allowed to pound on him even more than usual. And as everyone on this Board should know, part of learning is failing. In fact, failure is typically the best teacher. As for those who question his effort, go watch him play live in 80 games as I have over the past two seasons. Watch him engage in a perpetual wrestling match, fighting for position on nearly every single possession as he's pushed, held and elbowed by the biggest, strongest athletes in the NBA. Watch him get open for brief moments but never get the ball from our shoot-first PG. You'd see he doesnt have effort issues. He has judgment issues -- i.e., making bad decisions, and maturity issues -- complaining to refs rather than running the floor. Those issues have to be corrected and I think they will be because KAT's competitive nature will drive him to fix those issues -- provided he's guided effectively by his coaching staff and veteran players. I have no doubt that Butler and Taj will hold him accountable and teach him what he needs to know.

I'd like to see the Wolves at least make it reasonably close in one of not both of these next two gams at home. But ultimately this team has work to do to get to that next level. Our front office will need to deliver this summer with savvy personnel moves. Our young guys will need to improve their games with hard work over the summer. And, in my view, our head coach will have to take a long look in the mirror and make some changes in his approach. I have my doubts. But as you point out effectively, Monster, there is legitimate reason be hopeful.


Thanks Lip and I appreciated this post I concur with everything you said.

One thing to add to your post is I think Teague has done for the most part in this series at least when he is matched up with Chris Paul is played some pretty good defense. He certainly stepped up his game there at the very least.

I agree with you I am not worried about Towns offense. In various posts there have been some concerns about things he is or isn't doing right now that are part of why he is struggling and even the Wolves offense. Like you said this is a learning process for him. At some point he will learn how to beat some of these things that have him flummoxed right now. For one thing he will start just shooting over the top of smaller defenders instead of trying to crush them with post game.

Ultimately this franchise has to make some smart decisions going forward. It can't fall in love with some players and pay them too much money. If we have to give Belly Full mid-level money...maybe we need to let him walk and that's coming from someone that's a big time Belly fan and think we'll need to keep him. If we have to worry about the Lux tax at all I'd hope we could find a cheaper option out there somewhere. If Rose comes back (you know he will*) he can't be given more than the vet min. Look around the league at teams who paid guys decent sized contracts (Dieng) and they weren't actually difference makers. We need to try and avoid that as much as well can.

* based on these few games as a Wolf I support Rose coming back even though he doesn't help the shooting problem we have. He looks plenty athletic enough can still get to the rim and score and his passing doesn't suck for a guy that can get buckets. His defense has shockingly been more than passable. Maybe he turns into a POS pumpkin and/or can't play because he is injured but bring him back as Aaron Brooks spot at least and if he is playing well and healthy find him some minutes. The Rockets went out and got Eric Gordon and he has been fantastic for them. Rose won't have the impact of Gordon but what if he was somewhere between Gordon and Shawn Livingston? Betting on a guy with his talent could pay off. We need to take a chance on someone. We almost had Lance Stephenson but we let him go. He legitimately may not have worked out here like he has with the Pacers but I think you get my point. We also can't make decisions based on arose being here and healthy. We need to keep building also. I still think MGH could be part of the answer. Supposedly the Wolves love his potential. It will be interesting to see their summer league squad this year and I hope Ryan Saunders is the guy coaching them.

Re: G2 Playoffs Baby! Wolves vs Rockets GTD

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:07 pm
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
Don't be surprised if Thibs quietly tests the Wiggins marketplace this offseason, which is a little dicey since his play is not even close to his (future) contract value. But may be there is a team out there willing to part with some serious value in order to chase hope and potential. We need a guy that can shoot next to Butler.

Re: G2 Playoffs Baby! Wolves vs Rockets GTD

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:20 pm
by Lipoli390
Q12543 wrote:Don't be surprised if Thibs quietly tests the Wiggins marketplace this offseason, which is a little dicey since his play is not even close to his (future) contract value. But may be there is a team out there willing to part with some serious value in order to chase hope and potential. We need a guy that can shoot next to Butler.


I agree that's definitely a possibility, Q. One thing we know about Thibs is that he's not afraid to make a bold move. But he's also shown he's not reckless either. I actually trust his temperament as our top executive. I'm just not sure I trust his judgment selecting players.

Re: G2 Playoffs Baby! Wolves vs Rockets GTD

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:26 pm
by Coolbreeze44
kekgeek1 wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
BloopOracle wrote:"But what scares me most is what I've harped on repeatedly this year. If KAT and Wiggins keep getting rewarded (and given excuses) while being heaped with praise without much criticism... WHY would they do what they need to do to improve? Where's the incentive? I want more than hollow "nice-speak" from KAT after this series. It's gonna be Year 4 for him. And Year 5 for Wiggins."

This is why I am still happy making the playoffs even against Houston, Towns and Wiggins are getting consistently killed by the national media. They may very well flame out in the end anyway but at least they are FINALLY getting criticism instead of Hakeem comparisons and max contracts for empty stats.



I think we've seen a sharp U-turn in how Wiggins is perceived. He's been ripped often. And not always accurately either.

But I listened to a prominent NBA podcast on the commute to work today that railed on the strategy without blaming Towns. The one guy kept harping on "only 9 shots"

Well, Towns didn't play much and he took several really bad shots last night. Basically "give up" plays. Sure, some of that is because of where he is on the court. And part of that is him giving up and just launching.


[Note: Now granted, I think the heat on Thibs isn't a bad thing either. Something has to change with him, too. But if there's already a sense of entitlement with Towns... being excused for arguably the worst two playoff games for an All Star in NBA history... won't end well. Who knows. I'm sure he's frustrated and will be determined to learn/improve from it. That's our hope. We'll see how it pans out.]


I am guessing you were listening to Kevin O'bomber and company. It was interesting that they ripped Wiggins, saying he sucks but it was all thibs fault on towns

Just thought it was interesting that they destroyed Wiggins when he is putting up 15.5/7/2 on 46% shooting, playing solid defense. I think nobody would complain about Wiggins if those were his numbers if the other 2 stars would show up.

KAT needs to show up. Like you said Towns might of had the 2 worst games in NBA history to start your playoff career for an all nba player

Kek, what was their rationale for destroying Wiggins? He hasn't been great but he's been as good as anyone we've got. Just curious.