Some green shoots rising up from the ashes

[Carlos Danger]

Sure it would make sense to deal those guys for value. The problem is we don't know what kind of value they have. Naz value is very likely going up but he is a FA at the end of the season and like I said lots of teams have space. The fact that a team would have Naz's bird rights could benefit some teams that won't have cap space. For example of the Wolves were acquiring a PG version of Naz Reid a promising young player that was a FA but might get paid more than what they could offer...then trading for them might be good. What's Nowell really worth on the open market? 2nd round pick? The good thing about Naz and Nowell is they are making very little money so they would be easy to move to a new team in terms of salary.

Russell is paid 30 million this year and teams have to match salary. It's really gonna be difficult to find a deal where the Wolves get much value back because of that. lol at the return for guys that made much less in Bogdonovic and Beverly. It's not that Russell sucks it's just the salary keeps him from being easily moved.

As a I said in a post a few weeks ago it's possible all these guys leave and the Wolves get nothing. Sounds bad right? It would be but it also means the Wolves would have 3 open roster spots and a clear open spot for a starting PG which could mean they get a player who picks a starting role over the most money. They might be able to sign a number of different players with other roster spots that could end up being fairly valuable. After struggling early (at least hitting shots) Austin Rivers looks like a nice pickup. Having open roster spots can mean you get a guy someone else doesn't want for basically free. It's not like other sports where you get some sort of draft compensation when some players leave but I'd argue that the NBA currently roster spots are maybe more valuable than other major sports.

Does the front office want these guys back? Probably...especially depending on the price. Let's be honest Nowell...we really don't know what he is gonna be yet. What will be his price? He might still come back especially if Russell leaves. Speaking of Russell I don't think we know for sure yet on him either. If he comes back for a reasonable salary (different people will say different numbers) then sure especially depending on what other options are out there. One thing Connelly has experience doing in the past is getting value from guys that he acquired/drafted etc that after a while weren't going to end up back on Denver's roster. Maybe he is able to do that this trade deadline or maybe the value isn't there or maybe the team has started to come together at that point. It happened last year and it's happened to other teams in the past that had legit talent. There is time for things to come together so we will see what happens. Maybe they should be dealing Austin Rivers too right?

Good response. I wonder if Russell plus a piece i.e. the low salary guys like Nowell or Reid, Moore Jr. might make for some sort of decent return and easier to match salary back with a couple players. Beverley was a catalyst for this team last year. He's not looking great in LA. Would he bring something to this team to help bring back some defense? IDK.

Regarding Austin Rivers. I see him getting a lot of positive comments on here recently. I do agree his recent play has been better and I'm fine with him earning more minutes. But the dude is 30 years old. This is his 11th season and he's been a positive VORP exactly one time during that career. (And it's not this year). I think we should strive for something better myself. I'd much rather Moore Jr. be getting those minutes as I think he's played about the same as Rivers but with obviously more upside.

[Q-is-here]

I think the love for Rivers stems from the fact that he is the type of vet that can make a real difference IF you have all your other ducks in a row (which we really don't have right now). But IF we get healthy and the offense starts to hum a bit more, then Rivers will be really critical because without him we have a gaping hole in defending opposing guards. And I know Moore Jr. had his "moment" defending Ja, but he's otherwise been a pretty terrible NBA player. And the refs won't respect him like they do Rivers.

Nowell better watch his back if we get healthy, as I can see Rivers usurping his minutes to a large degree.

[Carlos Danger]

I think the love for Rivers stems from the fact that he is the type of vet that can make a real difference IF you have all your other ducks in a row (which we really don't have right now). But IF we get healthy and the offense starts to hum a bit more, then Rivers will be really critical because without him we have a gaping hole in defending opposing guards. And I know Moore Jr. had his "moment" defending Ja, but he's otherwise been a pretty terrible NBA player. And the refs won't respect him like they do Rivers.

Nowell better watch his back if we get healthy, as I can see Rivers usurping his minutes to a large degree.

You make a great point regarding the refs most likely giving more respect to Rivers vs. Moore Jr. But if you think Moore Jr. has been pretty terrible, I'd just point out his PER and VORP are actually higher than Rivers right now. In fact, Moore Jr's PER is about the same as River's career average PER. What does that tell us about Rivers? (That's a rhetorical question).

I think it's normal for rookies to struggle out of the gate. If Moore Jr. struggling is about the same as River's best, I'd go with Moore Jr. myself. It's not like this team is clicking on all cylinders. We need to find some lighting in a bottle somewhere. Rivers has provided that over a couple games - so I'm fine letting that streak run out. But once he's back to his very replaceable self, I'm hoping to see more Jr. (Pun intended - see what I did there?).

[Monster]

Sure it would make sense to deal those guys for value. The problem is we don't know what kind of value they have. Naz value is very likely going up but he is a FA at the end of the season and like I said lots of teams have space. The fact that a team would have Naz's bird rights could benefit some teams that won't have cap space. For example of the Wolves were acquiring a PG version of Naz Reid a promising young player that was a FA but might get paid more than what they could offer...then trading for them might be good. What's Nowell really worth on the open market? 2nd round pick? The good thing about Naz and Nowell is they are making very little money so they would be easy to move to a new team in terms of salary.

Russell is paid 30 million this year and teams have to match salary. It's really gonna be difficult to find a deal where the Wolves get much value back because of that. lol at the return for guys that made much less in Bogdonovic and Beverly. It's not that Russell sucks it's just the salary keeps him from being easily moved.

As a I said in a post a few weeks ago it's possible all these guys leave and the Wolves get nothing. Sounds bad right? It would be but it also means the Wolves would have 3 open roster spots and a clear open spot for a starting PG which could mean they get a player who picks a starting role over the most money. They might be able to sign a number of different players with other roster spots that could end up being fairly valuable. After struggling early (at least hitting shots) Austin Rivers looks like a nice pickup. Having open roster spots can mean you get a guy someone else doesn't want for basically free. It's not like other sports where you get some sort of draft compensation when some players leave but I'd argue that the NBA currently roster spots are maybe more valuable than other major sports.

Does the front office want these guys back? Probably...especially depending on the price. Let's be honest Nowell...we really don't know what he is gonna be yet. What will be his price? He might still come back especially if Russell leaves. Speaking of Russell I don't think we know for sure yet on him either. If he comes back for a reasonable salary (different people will say different numbers) then sure especially depending on what other options are out there. One thing Connelly has experience doing in the past is getting value from guys that he acquired/drafted etc that after a while weren't going to end up back on Denver's roster. Maybe he is able to do that this trade deadline or maybe the value isn't there or maybe the team has started to come together at that point. It happened last year and it's happened to other teams in the past that had legit talent. There is time for things to come together so we will see what happens. Maybe they should be dealing Austin Rivers too right?

Good response. I wonder if Russell plus a piece i.e. the low salary guys like Nowell or Reid, Moore Jr. might make for some sort of decent return and easier to match salary back with a couple players. Beverley was a catalyst for this team last year. He's not looking great in LA. Would he bring something to this team to help bring back some defense? IDK.

Regarding Austin Rivers. I see him getting a lot of positive comments on here recently. I do agree his recent play has been better and I'm fine with him earning more minutes. But the dude is 30 years old. This is his 11th season and he's been a positive VORP exactly one time during that career. (And it's not this year). I think we should strive for something better myself. I'd much rather Moore Jr. be getting those minutes as I think he's played about the same as Rivers but with obviously more upside.

Adding another player even with with a lower salary isn't going to help the fact that a team has to basically match a max salary. Russell isn't going to bring back much of anything and if he does it will likely mean long term saps let of a player than a few months from now people will be like why do we have this guy he is over paid etc...just like people have been doing with Russell since he got here.

[Monster]

I think the love for Rivers stems from the fact that he is the type of vet that can make a real difference IF you have all your other ducks in a row (which we really don't have right now). But IF we get healthy and the offense starts to hum a bit more, then Rivers will be really critical because without him we have a gaping hole in defending opposing guards. And I know Moore Jr. had his "moment" defending Ja, but he's otherwise been a pretty terrible NBA player. And the refs won't respect him like they do Rivers.

Nowell better watch his back if we get healthy, as I can see Rivers usurping his minutes to a large degree.

You make a great point regarding the refs most likely giving more respect to Rivers vs. Moore Jr. But if you think Moore Jr. has been pretty terrible, I'd just point out his PER and VORP are actually higher than Rivers right now. In fact, Moore Jr's PER is about the same as River's career average PER. What does that tell us about Rivers? (That's a rhetorical question).

I think it's normal for rookies to struggle out of the gate. If Moore Jr. struggling is about the same as River's best, I'd go with Moore Jr. myself. It's not like this team is clicking on all cylinders. We need to find some lighting in a bottle somewhere. Rivers has provided that over a couple games - so I'm fine letting that streak run out. But once he's back to his very replaceable self, I'm hoping to see more Jr. (Pun intended - see what I did there?).

Rivers is a low usage vet that plays some D and is currently wildly efficient. The game I have watched this year he is been either competent or very good in his role. Obviously he will drop off in his impressive efficiency but the guy has been quite solid for a stretch of games. I am not even a big fan of Rivers but he is a guy making the vet min and currently performing quite well in an expanded role for a team sticking around .500 despite suffering a fairly significant litany of injuries.

As for Moore I'm a big fan of him but calling for him to play more based on the advanced stats based on 96 total minutes because Austin Rivers who currently has a TS% of almost 62% doesn't make much rational sense to me. If we are talking about Bryn Forbes or if Rivers was still shooting just a good batting average like he was when Moore first got a start...sure but that's not the case right now.

[Carlos Danger]

I think the love for Rivers stems from the fact that he is the type of vet that can make a real difference IF you have all your other ducks in a row (which we really don't have right now). But IF we get healthy and the offense starts to hum a bit more, then Rivers will be really critical because without him we have a gaping hole in defending opposing guards. And I know Moore Jr. had his "moment" defending Ja, but he's otherwise been a pretty terrible NBA player. And the refs won't respect him like they do Rivers.

Nowell better watch his back if we get healthy, as I can see Rivers usurping his minutes to a large degree.

You make a great point regarding the refs most likely giving more respect to Rivers vs. Moore Jr. But if you think Moore Jr. has been pretty terrible, I'd just point out his PER and VORP are actually higher than Rivers right now. In fact, Moore Jr's PER is about the same as River's career average PER. What does that tell us about Rivers? (That's a rhetorical question).

I think it's normal for rookies to struggle out of the gate. If Moore Jr. struggling is about the same as River's best, I'd go with Moore Jr. myself. It's not like this team is clicking on all cylinders. We need to find some lighting in a bottle somewhere. Rivers has provided that over a couple games - so I'm fine letting that streak run out. But once he's back to his very replaceable self, I'm hoping to see more Jr. (Pun intended - see what I did there?).

Rivers is a low usage vet that plays some D and is currently wildly efficient. The game I have watched this year he is been either competent or very good in his role. Obviously he will drop off in his impressive efficiency but the guy has been quite solid for a stretch of games. I am not even a big fan of Rivers but he is a guy making the vet min and currently performing quite well in an expanded role for a team sticking around .500 despite suffering a fairly significant litany of injuries.

As for Moore I'm a big fan of him but calling for him to play more based on the advanced stats based on 96 total minutes because Austin Rivers who currently has a TS% of almost 62% doesn't make much rational sense to me. If we are talking about Bryn Forbes or if Rivers was still shooting just a good batting average like he was when Moore first got a start...sure but that's not the case right now.

Alright. A couple of things - I'll go in the order of your post:

1.) You state Rivers is "wildly efficient". By what metric? PER literally stands for Player Efficiency Rating. Even with his recent couple good games, his rating is terrible. And that's not a fluke. He's PER has been terrible his whole career. Pretty much the opposite of wildly efficient.

2.) To be clear, I never called for Moore to replace Rivers while he's in his current hot streak. I wrote once he regresses to his norm. Maybe Rivers has turned the corner in his 11th season and at age 30. But I highly doubt it. Regardless - I do believe in letting streaks play out.

3.) Yes, Moore Jr. only has 96 minutes and that's not much of a sample to draw any concrete conclusions. Conversely, Rivers has over 16,000 career minutes. I'm very confident in what to expect from him. He's a roster filler - nothing else.

[FNG]

I think the love for Rivers stems from the fact that he is the type of vet that can make a real difference IF you have all your other ducks in a row (which we really don't have right now). But IF we get healthy and the offense starts to hum a bit more, then Rivers will be really critical because without him we have a gaping hole in defending opposing guards. And I know Moore Jr. had his "moment" defending Ja, but he's otherwise been a pretty terrible NBA player. And the refs won't respect him like they do Rivers.

Nowell better watch his back if we get healthy, as I can see Rivers usurping his minutes to a large degree.

You make a great point regarding the refs most likely giving more respect to Rivers vs. Moore Jr. But if you think Moore Jr. has been pretty terrible, I'd just point out his PER and VORP are actually higher than Rivers right now. In fact, Moore Jr's PER is about the same as River's career average PER. What does that tell us about Rivers? (That's a rhetorical question).

I think it's normal for rookies to struggle out of the gate. If Moore Jr. struggling is about the same as River's best, I'd go with Moore Jr. myself. It's not like this team is clicking on all cylinders. We need to find some lighting in a bottle somewhere. Rivers has provided that over a couple games - so I'm fine letting that streak run out. But once he's back to his very replaceable self, I'm hoping to see more Jr. (Pun intended - see what I did there?).

Rivers is a low usage vet that plays some D and is currently wildly efficient. The game I have watched this year he is been either competent or very good in his role. Obviously he will drop off in his impressive efficiency but the guy has been quite solid for a stretch of games. I am not even a big fan of Rivers but he is a guy making the vet min and currently performing quite well in an expanded role for a team sticking around .500 despite suffering a fairly significant litany of injuries.

As for Moore I'm a big fan of him but calling for him to play more based on the advanced stats based on 96 total minutes because Austin Rivers who currently has a TS% of almost 62% doesn't make much rational sense to me. If we are talking about Bryn Forbes or if Rivers was still shooting just a good batting average like he was when Moore first got a start...sure but that's not the case right now.

Alright. A couple of things - I'll go in the order of your post:

1.) You state Rivers is "wildly efficient". By what metric? PER literally stands for Player Efficiency Rating. Even with his recent couple good games, his rating is terrible. And that's not a fluke. He's PER has been terrible his whole career. Pretty much the opposite of wildly efficient.

2.) To be clear, I never called for Moore to replace Rivers while he's in his current hot streak. I wrote once he regresses to his norm. Maybe Rivers has turned the corner in his 11th season and at age 30. But I highly doubt it. Regardless - I do believe in letting streaks play out.

3.) Yes, Moore Jr. only has 96 minutes and that's not much of a sample to draw any concrete conclusions. Conversely, Rivers has over 16,000 career minutes. I'm very confident in what to expect from him. He's a roster filler - nothing else.

I'm not opposed to seeing what Moore Jr. can do, but only if (and I don't think this will happen) we give up on this season. Carlos, a lot of his minutes seem to me to have come at garbage time, so it's difficult to draw any conclusions about his stats to date. I can't say I am enamored with Rivers, but he is the much better option right now.

[Carlos Danger]

I'm not opposed to seeing what Moore Jr. can do, but only if (and I don't think this will happen) we give up on this season. Carlos, a lot of his minutes seem to me to have come at garbage time, so it's difficult to draw any conclusions about his stats to date. I can't say I am enamored with Rivers, but he is the much better option right now.

You don't think Moore Jr. could have taken River's 20 minutes last night and given us more than: Zero points, Zero rebounds, one assist and one turnover?

OK, admittedly, I'm just pushing buttons now. I totally get what you, Monster and others are saying. You all make fair points and nothing should ever be handed to rookies - make them earn it. I'm cool with that. Just let the record show I am not an Austin Rivers fan.

The reality is this team has bigger fish to fry than Austin Rivers/Moore Jr. We need the top of the food chain to kick this thing into gear (KAT, Gobert, DLO and Edwards). In the meantime, I'll be concentrating more on the MN Vikings....

[Q-is-here]

I'm not opposed to seeing what Moore Jr. can do, but only if (and I don't think this will happen) we give up on this season. Carlos, a lot of his minutes seem to me to have come at garbage time, so it's difficult to draw any conclusions about his stats to date. I can't say I am enamored with Rivers, but he is the much better option right now.

You don't think Moore Jr. could have taken River's 20 minutes last night and given us more than: Zero points, Zero rebounds, one assist and one turnover?

OK, admittedly, I'm just pushing buttons now. I totally get what you, Monster and others are saying. You all make fair points and nothing should ever be handed to rookies - make them earn it. I'm cool with that. Just let the record show I am not an Austin Rivers fan.

The reality is this team has bigger fish to fry than Austin Rivers/Moore Jr. We need the top of the food chain to kick this thing into gear (KAT, Gobert, DLO and Edwards). In the meantime, I'll be concentrating more on the MN Vikings...

We'll see you back here then after their first round playoff loss! (it's been a fun season though).

[Leado01]

Since Kat went down Edwards is 24.9ppg 47%fg 40.7 3pt% 6.3rb 5.5ast 2.5stl .9blk

He is really the magic mushroom on this turd pile.

It's the best source for magic!