Minnesota Sports Forum

AbeVigodaLive wrote:"Small" market might be a bit of a misnomer. It's about more than size. I think it comes down to desired markets and non-desired markets.

And Minnesota has a few marks going against it, even beyond the mid-size market.

Perceptions matter... especially to young and very wealthy basketball players. Minnesota is a hockey (e.g., pretty white) state. It's cold... very cold. It's in flyover country. It offers no tax benefits. No history. No splashiness at all. Things like a solid corporate base, or education, or theaters, or quality of living for a middle income family of 4 that puts Minnesota high up on the list of good places to live... mean nothing to a 23 - 28 year old from the deep south or California or inner city borough.

Meanwhile, even though a place like Dallas or Brooklyn hasn't been a top-notch destination... both offer distinct advantages over Minnesota.

Brooklyn is in New York. It has things that the Timberwolves can never offer... which make it more desirable... when both teams are bad or both teams are good.

Dallas is larger. More diverse. Warmer. And doesn't have state income taxes. Again, it's infinitely more desirable (all things being equal) than Minnesota.

My point is that whether it's called a small or mid-size market is largely irrelevant. Minnesota is definitely on the list of least desirable NBA markets... and that puts the Timberwolves at a disadvantage vs. almost all of the other NBA teams.

I agree, Abe. Desirability is the measure. It's about perception. I don't think size is irrelevant; it's simply one factor among others that you've identified. You listed the factors that make Minnesota a less attractive market for young NBA players. I agree on all of them. But I'd say we're still a more attractive destination than Salt Lake City, Memphis and Indianapolis, and at least as attractive as Milwaukee and Oklahoma City. And ultimately, the factors you listed can be significantly offset or mitigated by other team-specific factors like the quality of the arena and practice facilities, franchise culture, attendance and, above all else, winning. The collective bargaining agreement, including the salary cap, revenue sharing and the rookie contract structure give franchises in less desirable markets a reasonable chance to succeed. But it's definitely harder to succeed in markets like Minnesota, Memphis, Indianapolis and Milwaukee than it is in markets like Miami, Los Angeles and New York.

FNG wrote:Some good takes here. Drew and Abe are correct that MSP is really not a small market...I see 12 NBA markets larger than us and 13 smaller...and several of the smaller ones have no problems attracting free agents. but they are also correct that there are factors much more important than size when free agents consider the Wolves, and we don't stack up well. This article is 11 years old, but it ranked the cities NBA players hate...we were #1.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/439790-do-we-have-to-play-there-the-top-five-places-nba-players-dread-to-play

But things have changed in the past year, and I can tell you from personal experience that it is much easier to attract POCs to the Twin Cities since the George Floyd killing. I have noticed personally, and a close friend who is a recruiter agrees, that the tragic Floyd incident put us "on the map" ...like it or not (and I guess I largely do), the Twin Cities are perceived by POCs as a social justice Mecca, and a place where they can be in the middle of change. Equally important is the pending change of ownership...NBA players love the limelight, and even if we all think of Glen Taylor as a rock star :cool:, ARod and his partner just might be a slightly bigger draw. I'm convinced these two factors have made us instantly more appealing to the typical NBA player who might not have known where "Mindianapolis" was 15 months ago, and are likely more important than climate and nightlife. Ultimately though, winning more games will be vital to making us attractive to the bid free agents.

Good post, FNG. The article you posted is particularly interesting. It lists the Sixers as one of the least desirable franchises, which at the time was based largely on a bad team and low attendance. So it's not all about the night life or weather. In fact, I think winning is probably the biggest factor.

I hadn't thought of the social justice angle increasing the desirability of Minneapolis, but I see your point. I agree that the Lore/A-Rod ownership will help increase the desirability of the Wolves franchise as a destination for players. I should also note the the Minneapolis night life is a heck of a lot better than other NBA cities. It's certainly better than Oklahoma City, Indianapolis and Salt Lake City. But I would argue that it's also better than Memphis, Portland, Milwaukee, San Antonio and Denver.

I agree with the takes that Minneapolis is certainly not high on the desirability scale but there are quite a few people that have said the city tends to win a lot of people over (across major sports) that actually spend any time here. There are basketball players that like to do outdoor activities that lend well to the area. Abe layed out some of the positives of the area for raising a family etc in an earlier post. Ultimately I think Minneapolis if the Wolves could actually become a competent or you know better than that I think they could attract some FAs here instead of having to overpay and REALLY wow people at the pitch to get them here. It would also help the Wolves if they had some key players other players would like to play with. That also matters. Hopefully the Wolves can keep from being so hamstring financial in terms of total salaries that if they make that upward trajectory they can add some key guys.

Dane Moore has a theory that Rosas knew when taking over the Wolves that he wasn't going to get FA here so he plans to build the team through trades draft and lots of bites at the apple. That's probably a reasonably smart strategy if true.

monsterpile wrote:I agree with the takes that Minneapolis is certainly not high on the desirability scale but there are quite a few people that have said the city tends to win a lot of people over (across major sports) that actually spend any time here. There are basketball players that like to do outdoor activities that lend well to the area. Abe layed out some of the positives of the area for raising a family etc in an earlier post. Ultimately I think Minneapolis if the Wolves could actually become a competent or you know better than that I think they could attract some FAs here instead of having to overpay and REALLY wow people at the pitch to get them here. It would also help the Wolves if they had some key players other players would like to play with. That also matters. Hopefully the Wolves can keep from being so hamstring financial in terms of total salaries that if they make that upward trajectory they can add some key guys.

Dane Moore has a theory that Rosas knew when taking over the Wolves that he wasn't going to get FA here so he plans to build the team through trades draft and lots of bites at the apple. That's probably a reasonably smart strategy if true.

I completely agree with your take, Monster. This area certainly won over KG. The weather is a big negative, but there are some other franchises in places with winter weather that's nearly as bad - Milwaukee, Chicago and Boston. And it's not like New York is a tropical paradise. More importantly, as I mentioned in my earlier post, the Minneapolis night life compares favorably to a lot of other NBA cities. Real estate is still cheaper here than places like Los Angeles, New York, the Bay Area and Miami. And again, this is a far preferable destination for young rich athletes than Salt Lake City, Oklahoma City, Memphis and Indianapolis. There are enough positives associated with this community to position the Wolves for success if the franchise is well run and wins games. I think you nailed it that competent management should position to the Wolves to get good (not great) free agents without overpaying them. And who knows, maybe this franchise will be good enough to attract a star free agent.

I think Dane Moore is right about Rosas. His decision to trade for DLO was a strategic one based on the futility of free agency and the fact that KAT and DLO are close friends. Ultimately, most franchises need to build primarily through the draft and trades. That's what the Warriors did - drafting Curry, Thompson and Green and then trading for Iggy. That's what the Spurs did drafting Duncan, Parker and Manu. That's what the Sixers have done - drafting Simmons and Embiid and then trading for Harris and Curry. That's what the Bucks have done, drafting Giannis and trading for both Middleton and Holiday. The Hawks drafted Trae Young, John Collins and Hunter. The list goes on. Only one of this year's super teams built through free agency remains in the playoffs.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:I agree with the takes that Minneapolis is certainly not high on the desirability scale but there are quite a few people that have said the city tends to win a lot of people over (across major sports) that actually spend any time here. There are basketball players that like to do outdoor activities that lend well to the area. Abe layed out some of the positives of the area for raising a family etc in an earlier post. Ultimately I think Minneapolis if the Wolves could actually become a competent or you know better than that I think they could attract some FAs here instead of having to overpay and REALLY wow people at the pitch to get them here. It would also help the Wolves if they had some key players other players would like to play with. That also matters. Hopefully the Wolves can keep from being so hamstring financial in terms of total salaries that if they make that upward trajectory they can add some key guys.

Dane Moore has a theory that Rosas knew when taking over the Wolves that he wasn't going to get FA here so he plans to build the team through trades draft and lots of bites at the apple. That's probably a reasonably smart strategy if true.

I completely agree with your take, Monster. This area certainly won over KG. The weather is a big negative, but there are some other franchises in places with winter weather that's nearly as bad - Milwaukee, Chicago and Boston. And it's not like New York is a tropical paradise. More importantly, as I mentioned in my earlier post, the Minneapolis night life compares favorably to a lot of other NBA cities. Real estate is still cheaper here than places like Los Angeles, New York, the Bay Area and Miami. And again, this is a far preferable destination for young rich athletes than Salt Lake City, Oklahoma City, Memphis and Indianapolis. There are enough positives associated with this community to position the Wolves for success if the franchise is well run and wins games. I think you nailed it that competent management should position to the Wolves to get good (not great) free agents without overpaying them. And who knows, maybe this franchise will be good enough to attract a star free agent.

I think Dane Moore is right about Rosas. His decision to trade for DLO was a strategic one based on the futility of free agency and the fact that KAT and DLO are close friends. Ultimately, most franchises need to build primarily through the draft and trades. That's what the Warriors did - drafting Curry, Thompson and Green and then trading for Iggy. That's what the Spurs did drafting Duncan, Parker and Manu. That's what the Sixers have done - drafting Simmons and Embiid and then trading for Harris and Curry. That's what the Bucks have done, drafting Giannis and trading for both Middleton and Holiday. The Hawks drafted Trae Young, John Collins and Hunter. The list goes on. Only one of this year's super teams built through free agency remains in the playoffs.

I'll add that some athletes don't care about the cold weather. Some that aren't from the colder states actually like it. It's weird how some people end up where they do. I have some friends who lived in Cali their whole lives are MASSIVE Disney fans and landed jobs here in Nebraska. They LOVE it here. Rember Bjelica loved it here. There are guys that have stuck around the area for years after playing for peanuts for the Saltdogs baseball team. Minneapolis is much more exciting than Lincoln although it's much colder and for longer. The bottom line is that you can't use the area as an excuse. There is some cold reality (lol) but nobody is dying to go to say OKC and they had a hel of a run and soon will be hosting the draft for like 3 years in a row because they will literally have all the picks!!!