Minnesota Sports Forum

FNG wrote:

thedoper wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:

D'Natagal wrote:

Q12543 wrote:I think Sabonis is a fantastic player. He could play either PF next to KAT or Center next to any combination of others. How much does he solve this team's problems offensively? Not much I'm afraid. I also don't think we have a compelling enough player to return to Indiana.

Actually I think a passing big man that can actually set proper screens would be VERY valuable to this team.
Your point about not having trade value is my biggest concern. We have all of our picks, but we would have to give up Jaden for sure and he is only making $2M.

This isn't directed at you, and I'm not meaning to upset anyone here, but can we as a fan base collectively stop talking about Jaden McDaniels like he's some blue chipper or highly-regarded prospect? I empathized with it over the summer, but he hasn't taken that sophomore step like many of us expected him to.

McDaniels has some tantalizing physical features and plays well defensively when he's not racking up personal fouls. In theory, he's got a high ceiling, but the reality might be that he'll never be the player most want him to be. He may not even be a Mikal Bridges or Robert Covington type player, and those guys are real difference-makers. If he's part of the price for someone legitimate -- an All-Star, for instance -- then we should not be hesitant to make such a deal.

Yeah I think if we could build a Beasley/McDaniels deal for Sabonis it would be an absolute no brainer for me.

Me too, doper...I really like Sabonis's game. But we have to ask why Indy would have any interest in that deal, even if we threw in multiple picks. Sabonis has been an all-star the last two years, and it's unlikely the Pacers would give him up for two reserves. The article says they are willing to rebuild, but they also say the owner is not willing to fall out of the playoffs. And if Sabonis were traded, they're not going to make the playoffs with Isaiah Jackson as their new starting PF. They have some concerns about the viability of a Turner/Sabonis pairing, I get that. But I think what they really want is what some of us want...a KAT/Turner pairing. I would think the asking price for a young 2-time all-star like Sabonis would be more like KAT (also a 2-time all-star) than 2 bench players. And I doubt that anyone here would like that deal.

I think multiple picks would get it done if they value McDaniels. If they dont then another contender with a prospect our two would have a better offer, like if Golden state would part with one of their young bigs.

FNG wrote:I would think the asking price for a young 2-time all-star like Sabonis would be more like KAT (a young "almost" all-star) than 2 bench players. And I doubt that anyone here would like that deal.

I don't follow this at all. Are you suggesting that Domantas Sabonis has equal or more trade value than Karl-Anthony Towns? How would you go about explaining that one? I'm actually curious.

Also, Towns is a 26-year old former All-NBA player with two All-Star nominations under his belt. That's a bit more accurate than this "almost All-Star" label you awarded him. That's also compared to the 25-year old Sabonis with two of his own All-Star nominations. Keep in mind that one of these two has the seventh-highest true shooting percentage of all-time -- ahead of Kevin Durant and comparable to Steph Curry.

Camden wrote:

FNG wrote:I would think the asking price for a young 2-time all-star like Sabonis would be more like KAT (a young "almost" all-star) than 2 bench players. And I doubt that anyone here would like that deal.

I don't follow this at all. Are you suggesting that Domantas Sabonis has equal or more trade value than Karl-Anthony Towns? How would you go about explaining that one? I'm actually curious.

Also, Towns is a 26-year old former All-NBA player with two All-Star nominations under his belt. That's a bit more accurate than this "almost All-Star" label you awarded him. That's also compared to the 25-year old Sabonis with two of his own All-Star nominations. Keep in mind that one of these two has the seventh-highest true shooting percentage of all-time -- ahead of Kevin Durant and comparable to Steph Curry.

Yeah, I changed my all-star description for Towns, although Sabonis was an all-star the past two years while KAT hasn't been one since 2019. As I said, I don't think anyone here would do that deal. Just like I don't think any Pacers fan would leave his team empty at PF by trading their best player for 2 reserves who are not PFs. The Indy fans overrate their players just like we overrate ours. But while it's the intangibles that differentiate Sabonis and Towns, their stats this year are quite similar.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=townska01&p1yrfrom=2022&player_id1=sabondo01&p2yrfrom=2022&sum=0&request=1

Towns is a much better 3-point shooter and scores more PPG. But Sabonis is the better rebounder, assist guy, defender and despite the wide gap in 3-point shooting, he is such a crafty scorer, his TS% is actually better than KAT's. And some here see VORP and WS as a good indicator of a player's value, and you can see they are nearly identical...KAT a hair better in VORP, Sabonis a hair better in WS.

But it's the intangibles that makes Sabonis much more popular with the Indy fan base than KAT is here. Just read the threads here...KAT is a frustrating cornerstone of this franchise. Here are some things that don't show up in the stat sheet that frustrate us about KAT and make the Pacer fans love Sabonis:

-screening: An underrated skill that makes an offense tick...Sabonis is a master,while KAT hasn't learned how to set a screen.

-whining vs. working the refs: how often do we complain about KAT's constant whining?

-getting back on defense: you seldom see Sabonis hanging back complaining to the refs while the other team fast breaks. It happens more than we would like with KAT.

-durability: KAT was great his first couple seasons, but he seems to be getting more fragile, and he's missing more games.

Do I trade KAT for Sabonis? Nope, our Wolves are a poor 3-point shooting team, and KAT is a 3-point freak. But as I look at the comparisons and their respective character, I have to question whether my opinion is based more on homerism than actually looking at their respective value. And I was merely pointing out that KAT is much more what the Pacers fan base is looking in exchange for a 2-time all-star than 2 bench players.

So those are all the reasons I don't find a discussion of the relative merits of the two players to be an absurd one. I get that KAT is better in PPG and 3-point shooting, but Sabonis is superior in most other statistical measures. What are the areas where you put KAT far ahead of Sabonis. Character? Winning mentality?

FNG, I also think you need to understand that if Indiana traded Domantas Sabonis, it would be for promising young players on their rookie contracts and draft capital as that's typically what rebuilding requires. They could retool by trading Sabonis or other players for better fits, but they'd arguably still be in the position they're in right now.

So, no, I don't think Pacer fans are expecting some kind of Karl-Anthony Towns-led package in return nor do I think anyone in the Wolves front office would entertain such an idea.

FNG wrote:

Camden wrote:

FNG wrote:I would think the asking price for a young 2-time all-star like Sabonis would be more like KAT (a young "almost" all-star) than 2 bench players. And I doubt that anyone here would like that deal.

I don't follow this at all. Are you suggesting that Domantas Sabonis has equal or more trade value than Karl-Anthony Towns? How would you go about explaining that one? I'm actually curious.

Also, Towns is a 26-year old former All-NBA player with two All-Star nominations under his belt. That's a bit more accurate than this "almost All-Star" label you awarded him. That's also compared to the 25-year old Sabonis with two of his own All-Star nominations. Keep in mind that one of these two has the seventh-highest true shooting percentage of all-time -- ahead of Kevin Durant and comparable to Steph Curry.

Yeah, I changed my all-star description for Towns, although Sabonis was an all-star the past two years while KAT hasn't been one since 2019. As I said, I don't think anyone here would do that deal. Just like I don't think any Pacers fan would leave his team empty at PF by trading their best player for 2 reserves who are not PFs. The Indy fans overrate their players just like we overrate ours. But while it's the intangibles that differentiate Sabonis and Towns, their stats this year are quite similar.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=townska01&p1yrfrom=2022&player_id1=sabondo01&p2yrfrom=2022&sum=0&request=1

Towns is a much better 3-point shooter and scores more PPG. But Sabonis is the better rebounder, assist guy, defender and despite the wide gap in 3-point shooting, he is such a crafty scorer, his TS% is actually better than KAT's. And some here see VORP and WS as a good indicator of a player's value, and you can see they are nearly identical...KAT a hair better in VORP, Sabonis a hair better in WS.

But it's the intangibles that makes Sabonis much more popular with the Indy fan base than KAT is here. Just read the threads here...KAT is a frustrating cornerstone of this franchise. Here are some things that don't show up in the stat sheet that frustrate us about KAT and make the Pacer fans love Sabonis:

-screening: An underrated skill that makes an offense tick...Sabonis is a master,while KAT hasn't learned how to set a screen.

-whining vs. working the refs: how often do we complain about KAT's constant whining?

-getting back on defense: you seldom see Sabonis hanging back complaining to the refs while the other team fast breaks. It happens more than we would like with KAT.

-durability: KAT was great his first couple seasons, but he seems to be getting more fragile, and he's missing more games.

Do I trade KAT for Sabonis? Nope, our Wolves are a poor 3-point shooting team, and KAT is a 3-point freak. But as I look at the comparisons and their respective character, I have to question whether my opinion is based more on homerism than actually looking at their respective value. And I was merely pointing out that KAT is much more what the Pacers fan base is looking in exchange for a 2-time all-star than 2 bench players.

So those are all the reasons I don't find a discussion of the relative merits of the two players to be an absurd one. I get that KAT is better in PPG and 3-point shooting, but Sabonis is superior in most other statistical measures. What are the areas where you put KAT far ahead of Sabonis. Character? Winning mentality?

KAT is more of the prototypical modern big. He shoots the 3 at an elite level. That can't be overlooked as how helpful that is to open the paint for the offense.

Sabonis is more old school and clogs the paint more making offense tougher on the rest of the team. If he shot the 3P at KAT's level? I would do the trade in a second, but he's a poor 3P shooter and teams don't and shouldn't respect that shot even.

I don't think Sabonis = KAT.

The Pacers would have to throw stuff in. BUT... it's more realistic than any Beasley + McDaniels + picks for Sabonis talk.

Beasley is a one-trick pony who isn't even doing that well... and has off-court issues. McDaniels is a toss-up whether he'll ever be a key rotational guy for a good team.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I don't think Sabonis = KAT.

The Pacers would have to throw stuff in. BUT... it's more realistic than any Beasley + McDaniels + picks for Sabonis talk.

Beasley is a one-trick pony who isn't even doing that well... and has off-court issues. McDaniels is a toss-up whether he'll ever be a key rotational guy for a good team.

Yeah, that's where I am. I would love the Sabonis for Beas/Jaden deal, but it's not realistic...I see it making the Wolves 7-10 wins better and the Pacers 7-10 worse. I can't see them trading their best player and only starting level PF for two bench players and picks.

But Jon K reports Myles Turner talk is heating up, as the Wolves would love to pair Turner and KAT. I would offer up Naz, Beasley and a couple second round picks (not an original idea...stolen from an internet article). I suspect Indy says no, but it's a deal that could make us a playoff team.

I tend to agree with Cam that this team needs the most help on the wing, specifically at the hybrid forward slot. Okogie, Prince, and McDaniels have not been good.

I don't think this would be as glaring of an issue if DLO and Edwards were shooting the ball better. We could survive with extreme one-way types at forward if two of our three "stars" were making shots. But they're not. Edwards goes off on a tear once every three or four games, but in between struggles mightily to make more than 40% of his shots. And DLO can't even break 40%.

I also agree that getting a cheaper version of Turner or Sabonis - someone with a strong base and good screen setter - may also help our existing guards and wings be more efficient by getting them some cleaner looks.

I'm not interested in a trade right now because I'm still now sure what we have here.

lipoli390 wrote:I'm not interested in a trade right now because I'm still now sure what we have here.

A halfway decent sub .500 team with glaring holes on the roster.