Minnesota Sports Forum

I'm starting to warm up to Wiseman as the pick. Or at least I'm going to try to talk myself into it here.

There are a a lot of reasons I'm skeptical.
[list]
[*] He's skinny and will get pushed around unless he puts on weight, especially in his lower body. But his hips are narrow, so I'm definitely worried about that. Whiteside was also skinny in the draft, but obviously got bigger, so it's possible. But if he doesn't get stronger in his lower body, he'll be a defensive liability in the paint, and that will be a big problem. I think this also explains why his rebounding stats in the AAU are unimpressive, especially given his length.
[*] While he's too skinny to be a safe bet down low, his shooting, handling, and perimeter defense also don't look like a sure thing. Unless one of those paths pans out, he'll be a bust. If he can't play big down low or on the perimeter, he just can't play.
[*] The center position is becoming less and less important in the league while it looks more and more like you need perimeter stars like Harden, Lillard, Curry, Tatum, etc. to compete in the playoffs. So passing on possible perimeter stars like Edwards or Ball (or even safer role-playing 3 & D wings) for a possible star big seems like outdated thinking.
[*] The fit with KAT will likely be problematic. For both of them to play on the floor at the same time, one of them would need to be able to defend outside the paint given that the league is getting smaller and more perimeter-oriented. We know KAT can't really do that. Can Wiseman? Right now that looks somewhat doubtful, although the sample size is so small.
[/list]

Ok, now that I've got that out of the way, let me try to talk myself into this.
[list]
[*] He is really long, so if he can strengthen his lower body and cut down on the fouls, he's got the potential to be a very good rim protector like Whiteside or KG or Deandre Jordan or even a great one like Rudy Gobert. I doubt he'll ever be as strong as Jordan was in his prime and I don't see the discipline that Gobert has, but the potential is definitely there. So even if nothing else works out for this guy, a rim-runner who can protect the bucket will still be valuable.
[*] He's obviously very athletic for a 7 footer. He reminds me a bit of a longer Jonathan Isaac. You can't teach that, especially for guys his size. If he did become as strong as a guy like Whiteside while keeping his athleticism, then the Embiid comparisons start to look legit. I hate to mention KG here, because I don't see anything remotely like KG's intensity, defensive focus, passing, and leadership, and there are obviously still questions about whether his strength and shooting will come along, but he looks more fluid athletically than KG ever did and has similar size.
[*] There are definitely questions about his jump shot, but the form does look pretty good. I don't see him being as good as KAT from 3, but at his length he'll be able to get that shot off anywhere on the floor. If he can knock them down from the perimeter at an average clip, like Bosh in his later years, then a lot of the concerns about him being outdated as a player will be answered and it will definitely be much easier to play him with KAT at the same time.
[*] He doesn't look like a good ball handler, but he does look good for a 7 footer. Unlike some 7 footers, he does look like he can at least put it on the floor for two or three bounces in transition or to get an open pass, and maybe more. That's enough to separate him from guys like Deandre Jordan or Gobert already, which means even if he doesn't pan out down low, there's a chance he could play some on the wing. I don't see him ever becoming as good with the ball as Anthony Davis in this regard (I also don't think he has Davis' motor and his body control doesn't seem as good either). But expecting a guy to be as good as Anthony Davis is pretty crazy. If his handles end up being more like Bosh's or KG's and if some of these other things come along (the strength and the shooting), then that's still a really good player at his size.
[*] Ultimately, while he doesn't have one obvious role you can count on, either as a big in the paint like Whiteside or Jordan or Gobert or a more perimeter-oriented guy like Isaac or Bosh, the potential is there for both. That means if one doesn't work out, at least the other role might. And in the best case scenario, he could end up being a guy who can play both roles. That would put him in Embiid territory as a guy who can play both styles. I really don't see him becoming as good as Anthony Davis, another big who can play so well in multiple ways. But if you have a chance to get a guy as good as Embiid, it's tough to pass up.
[*] Best case scenario, I see him becoming a more lithe Embiid-like guy. If we can't trade for a star or a good role player and a likely good first rounder next year, and if we're skeptical about Ball and Edwards (and there are definitely reason to be), then I think Wiseman makes sense. I like the role players in this draft, but we're not winning unless we get another star, so you might as well swing big. If he busts, he busts. But if he works out, even if you can't play him with KAT, you can trade one of them down the line.
[/list]

Camden wrote:

PorkChop wrote:What player in this draft has a higher ceiling? If no one, he should be the pick right?

If we're thinking that all players in this class reach their maximum ceiling, then Anthony Edwards is definitely in that conversation. I just don't feel like he'll ever refine his shot selection enough to get there, nor do I think he'll give a shit about defense full-time. Purely speculative, but I don't trust the mental aspect of his game. I get Andrew Wiggins vibes when I watch him and that puts me on edge.

I get JR Rider vibes. Unlike Wiggins, I've seen Edwards really pumped and outwardly emotional after he makes big offensive plays. So he does seem to have some passion for the game, at least on the offensive end. But he seems more interested in the show than in winning and he disappears completely way too often. That's Wiggins like, but actually more JR Rider like. In either case, it scares me.

worldK wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:

worldK wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

worldK wrote:A more durable Marcus Camby.

No joke I'd take Wiseman right now with no hesitation in this draft if this was the case. Camby was a pretty good player and would be a nice fit next to Towns in a few ways.

Camby was very good and productive. A double double machine who was an elite rim protector. Can shoot the mid range jumper, pass the ball, run the floor and finish above the rim. I can see Wiseman having a more durable body and frame. A better offensive game with more range on his jumper.

I see camby as more of a median for wiseman. A more likely scenario for him. I dont see him as a kandiman, kwame and darco like busts. At the same time, I have doubts that he can reach hakeem, david robinson, anthony davis or even chris bosh level. Maybe near bosh but bosh was a legit superstar to build around. Wiseman is more of a complimentary piece.

I'm not attacking you when I say this, but what makes you think that last part? I'm genuinely curious because if he was just a complimentary piece -- and not a star player -- he'd be pegged to go late in the lottery or at the back end of the first round.

James Wiseman was a likely first overall pick his senior year of high school. He has the kind of body and athleticism that can dominate at the NBA level. Not just adequately produce, but dominate. I need to remind everyone that Wiseman has nearly identical measurements to Joel Embiid coming out of Kansas. Wiseman, however, is a much superior, more fluid athlete. That's the kind of freak we're talking about here. The skill level in the post isn't at Embiid's level, but I think he's much further along as a perimeter threat than Embiid was and perhaps is.

Wrong wording. The better word to use would be the no.2 guy. I dont see him as the alpha dog on a championship team. But as the no.2 or 3 guy. More of an all star level than a superstar level.

Personally I think Embiid was a much better physical specimen coming out of college than Wiseman. Dude moved REALLY well and was built stronger. The problem with Embiid is/was his injury history. Embiid is a legit NBA center both in terms of girth and height and length plus all that skill. Like ai day for a bunch of these top prospects I'd like to see the actual measurements and then go from there. Physical characteristics aren't the end all be all but It certainly could swing me one way or another.

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:

PorkChop wrote:What player in this draft has a higher ceiling? If no one, he should be the pick right?

If we're thinking that all players in this class reach their maximum ceiling, then Anthony Edwards is definitely in that conversation. I just don't feel like he'll ever refine his shot selection enough to get there, nor do I think he'll give a shit about defense full-time. Purely speculative, but I don't trust the mental aspect of his game. I get Andrew Wiggins vibes when I watch him and that puts me on edge.

I get JR Rider vibes. Unlike Wiggins, I've seen Edwards really pumped and outwardly emotional after he makes big offensive plays. So he does seem to have some passion for the game, at least on the offensive end. But he seems more interested in the show than in winning and he disappears completely way too often. That's Wiggins like, but actually more JR Rider like. In either case, it scares me.

I didn't watch JR Rider play that much, although I was thinking of him as a physical comparison to Edwards. Physically, I also think Lance Stephenson is a fair comparison or even PJ Tucker in a few years if he keeps putting on man weight. These are purely physical comparisons, not commentary on how they play. But Edwards looks a bit like a brick shithouse, which is definitely a point in his favor. The physical tools are absolutely there. He's not quite OG or that thick, but he's definitely strong.

I think we need to be careful about reading too much into the mentality of guys at this stage. There are some guys everybody considers to be pitbulls, like Dennis Smith, Jr., and they turn out to have the ferocity of lambs. Then there are other guys everybody overlooks from a mental perspective, they get drafted late or not at all, and they turn out to have high motors. I'm thinking of Fred VanVleet, Ben Wallace, and Jimmy Butler. So we should be careful about psychoanalyzing guys, especially since, let's be honest, most of us haven't actually watched more than a few full games of these guys. I will say though that in his interview with Mike Schmidt, he does seem to be quick with an answer, which was never something you could say about Wiggins, for what it's worth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPa8o9mkhMo

Also, we should have an Edwards thread for this exchange. There's a lot to talk about there. Let's get back to Wiseman.

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:

PorkChop wrote:What player in this draft has a higher ceiling? If no one, he should be the pick right?

If we're thinking that all players in this class reach their maximum ceiling, then Anthony Edwards is definitely in that conversation. I just don't feel like he'll ever refine his shot selection enough to get there, nor do I think he'll give a shit about defense full-time. Purely speculative, but I don't trust the mental aspect of his game. I get Andrew Wiggins vibes when I watch him and that puts me on edge.

I get JR Rider vibes. Unlike Wiggins, I've seen Edwards really pumped and outwardly emotional after he makes big offensive plays. So he does seem to have some passion for the game, at least on the offensive end. But he seems more interested in the show than in winning and he disappears completely way too often. That's Wiggins like, but actually more JR Rider like. In either case, it scares me.

I didn't watch JR Rider play that much, although I was thinking of him as a physical comparison to Edwards. Physically, I also think Lance Stephenson is a fair comparison or even PJ Tucker in a few years if he keeps putting on man weight. These are purely physical comparisons, not commentary on how they play. But Edwards looks a bit like a brick shithouse, which is definitely a point in his favor. The physical tools are absolutely there. He's not quite OG or that thick, but he's definitely strong.

I think we need to be careful about reading too much into the mentality of guys at this stage. There are some guys everybody considers to be pitbulls, like Dennis Smith, Jr., and they turn out to have the ferocity of lambs. Then there are other guys everybody overlooks from a mental perspective, they get drafted late or not at all, and they turn out to have high motors. I'm thinking of Fred VanVleet, Ben Wallace, and Jimmy Butler. So we should be careful about psychoanalyzing guys, especially since, let's be honest, most of us haven't actually watched more than a few full games of these guys. I will say though that in his interview with Mike Schmidt, he does seem to be quick with an answer, which was never something you could say about Wiggins, for what it's worth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPa8o9mkhMo

Also, we should have an Edwards thread for this exchange. There's a lot to talk about there. Let's get back to Wiseman.

To the contrary, we should be careful about failing to consider the mentality of prospects. The Dennis Smith example actually supports that view. There were issues about his mentality coming out of college. I don't know what analysis were saying about VanVleet and Ben Wallace when they came out. But Jimmy Butler was already knows for being super competitive and having a great work ethic.

Time and again, super talented draft prospects whose draft reviews contained any questions regarding their motor or passion for the game have turned out to be busts. The Wolves have drafted their share of those guys, including JR Rider and Rashad McCants. Sometimes, those mentality issues seem to avoid detection until after they're drafted as was apparently the case with Derrick Williams, Wes Johnson and Darko. But that issue became readily apparent almost immediately after Derrick Williams was drafted. One high-level person in the Wolves organization at the time told me late in Derrick's rookie season that "he liked the NBA lifestyle more than the NBA game." So before drafting, it's critical to focus intently on each prospect's mentality and leave no stone unturned in that assessment.

lipoli390 wrote:

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:

PorkChop wrote:What player in this draft has a higher ceiling? If no one, he should be the pick right?

If we're thinking that all players in this class reach their maximum ceiling, then Anthony Edwards is definitely in that conversation. I just don't feel like he'll ever refine his shot selection enough to get there, nor do I think he'll give a shit about defense full-time. Purely speculative, but I don't trust the mental aspect of his game. I get Andrew Wiggins vibes when I watch him and that puts me on edge.

I get JR Rider vibes. Unlike Wiggins, I've seen Edwards really pumped and outwardly emotional after he makes big offensive plays. So he does seem to have some passion for the game, at least on the offensive end. But he seems more interested in the show than in winning and he disappears completely way too often. That's Wiggins like, but actually more JR Rider like. In either case, it scares me.

I didn't watch JR Rider play that much, although I was thinking of him as a physical comparison to Edwards. Physically, I also think Lance Stephenson is a fair comparison or even PJ Tucker in a few years if he keeps putting on man weight. These are purely physical comparisons, not commentary on how they play. But Edwards looks a bit like a brick shithouse, which is definitely a point in his favor. The physical tools are absolutely there. He's not quite OG or that thick, but he's definitely strong.

I think we need to be careful about reading too much into the mentality of guys at this stage. There are some guys everybody considers to be pitbulls, like Dennis Smith, Jr., and they turn out to have the ferocity of lambs. Then there are other guys everybody overlooks from a mental perspective, they get drafted late or not at all, and they turn out to have high motors. I'm thinking of Fred VanVleet, Ben Wallace, and Jimmy Butler. So we should be careful about psychoanalyzing guys, especially since, let's be honest, most of us haven't actually watched more than a few full games of these guys. I will say though that in his interview with Mike Schmidt, he does seem to be quick with an answer, which was never something you could say about Wiggins, for what it's worth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPa8o9mkhMo

Also, we should have an Edwards thread for this exchange. There's a lot to talk about there. Let's get back to Wiseman.

To the contrary, we should be careful about failing to consider the mentality of prospects. The Dennis Smith example actually supports that view. There were issues about his mentality coming out of college. I don't know what analysis were saying about VanVleet and Ben Wallace when they came out. But Jimmy Butler was already knows for being super competitive and having a great work ethic.

Time and again, super talented draft prospects whose draft reviews contained any questions regarding their motor or passion for the game have turned out to be busts. The Wolves have drafted their share of those guys, including JR Rider and Rashad McCants. Sometimes, those mentality issues seem to avoid detection until after they're drafted as was apparently the case with Derrick Williams, Wes Johnson and Darko. But that issue became readily apparent almost immediately after Derrick Williams was drafted. One high-level person in the Wolves organization at the time told me late in Derrick's rookie season that "he liked the NBA lifestyle more than the NBA game." So before drafting, it's critical to focus intently on each prospect's mentality and leave no stone unturned in that assessment.

You're right Lip, we have to consider it. I guess my point is to say we need to be careful to base it on the right things and be careful not to draw the wrong conclusions. It's not a simple task, and it's easy to screw up, so we just need to be really careful about it. But you're right, you definitely need to consider the mentality of players.

lipoli390 wrote:

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:

PorkChop wrote:What player in this draft has a higher ceiling? If no one, he should be the pick right?

If we're thinking that all players in this class reach their maximum ceiling, then Anthony Edwards is definitely in that conversation. I just don't feel like he'll ever refine his shot selection enough to get there, nor do I think he'll give a shit about defense full-time. Purely speculative, but I don't trust the mental aspect of his game. I get Andrew Wiggins vibes when I watch him and that puts me on edge.

I get JR Rider vibes. Unlike Wiggins, I've seen Edwards really pumped and outwardly emotional after he makes big offensive plays. So he does seem to have some passion for the game, at least on the offensive end. But he seems more interested in the show than in winning and he disappears completely way too often. That's Wiggins like, but actually more JR Rider like. In either case, it scares me.

I didn't watch JR Rider play that much, although I was thinking of him as a physical comparison to Edwards. Physically, I also think Lance Stephenson is a fair comparison or even PJ Tucker in a few years if he keeps putting on man weight. These are purely physical comparisons, not commentary on how they play. But Edwards looks a bit like a brick shithouse, which is definitely a point in his favor. The physical tools are absolutely there. He's not quite OG or that thick, but he's definitely strong.

I think we need to be careful about reading too much into the mentality of guys at this stage. There are some guys everybody considers to be pitbulls, like Dennis Smith, Jr., and they turn out to have the ferocity of lambs. Then there are other guys everybody overlooks from a mental perspective, they get drafted late or not at all, and they turn out to have high motors. I'm thinking of Fred VanVleet, Ben Wallace, and Jimmy Butler. So we should be careful about psychoanalyzing guys, especially since, let's be honest, most of us haven't actually watched more than a few full games of these guys. I will say though that in his interview with Mike Schmidt, he does seem to be quick with an answer, which was never something you could say about Wiggins, for what it's worth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPa8o9mkhMo

Also, we should have an Edwards thread for this exchange. There's a lot to talk about there. Let's get back to Wiseman.

To the contrary, we should be careful about failing to consider the mentality of prospects. The Dennis Smith example actually supports that view. There were issues about his mentality coming out of college. I don't know what analysis were saying about VanVleet and Ben Wallace when they came out. But Jimmy Butler was already knows for being super competitive and having a great work ethic.

Time and again, super talented draft prospects whose draft reviews contained any questions regarding their motor or passion for the game have turned out to be busts. The Wolves have drafted their share of those guys, including JR Rider and Rashad McCants. Sometimes, those mentality issues seem to avoid detection until after they're drafted as was apparently the case with Derrick Williams, Wes Johnson and Darko. But that issue became readily apparent almost immediately after Derrick Williams was drafted. One high-level person in the Wolves organization at the time told me late in Derrick's rookie season that "he liked the NBA lifestyle more than the NBA game." So before drafting, it's critical to focus intently on each prospect's mentality and leave no stone unturned in that assessment.

The knocks on DSJ were injuries bad attitude (although competitive) and to some extent shooting. I was high on him especially where he was later to get picked. Looks like I Totally screwed that one up and I'll own up to it. I will say I haven't seen him play enough to know why he sucked...and it doesn't matter enough now.

FVV the knock on him was too small, not athletic and maybe not good enough shooter and maybe wasn't enough of a scorer. It all seems almost laughable now But it wasn't a mental thing. Turns out he was playing his PG role in college to help his pretty talented team win. He is more of a scorer now than he was in college.

The mental aspect clearly matters. If you aren't sure...see Wiggins, Andrew. There were questions about him before college in college and We know how his pro career has gone. Ben Simmons was questions about his wanting to win and play defense. That turned out well. Bazz is a guy that ended up having a really good attitude as a person/teammate but had flaws in his game and maybe some in his approach but he tried hard and played hard. His attitude wasn't his problem. Looking inside someone's head ESPECIALLY most of these guys who are really still growing up is REALLY hard. It's not just a crapshoot though there is certainly information to be gained. Everyone knows someone that somewhat inexplicably went down a path that wasn't a positive one. There is no way to absolutely know what someone is or isn't going to do. It's a human mystery.

I think simply watching their tape and seeing who plays hard is a way to tell. I'm crossing anyone off the board if they don't give an high level of effort consistently. Many of these guys are very similar athletically and skill wise. The BIGGEST factor on wether or not they become stars is wether they play hard, are supremely competitive, hate losing, etc.

Guys who get big NBA money and simply don't give too much of a shit about winning won't make this team a contender. (Wiggins for example).

WolvesFan21 wrote:I think simply watching their tape and seeing who plays hard is a way to tell. I'm crossing anyone off the board if they don't give an high level of effort consistently. Many of these guys are very similar athletically and skill wise. The BIGGEST factor on wether or not they become stars is wether they play hard, are supremely competitive, hate losing, etc.

Guys who get big NBA money and simply don't give too much of a shit about winning won't make this team a contender. (Wiggins for example).

I think what you're really saying is you can't become great in the league unless you have a burning competitive desire and a willingness to do whatever it takes. MJ, Lebron, Kobe, Magic, Bird all had or have that. From everything I've heard or read about Andrew, he had the high work ethic. But he wasn't wired mentally the way the great players are. On the teams I coached, most often my best player was also my hardest worker and player who loved the game and hated to lose the most. I think you have to find those attributes in a #1 pick.

Bosh - and not just because of the left hand. Better defensively. Quicker trajectory offensively.

He dribbles well for a big. Can pull up from deep (see HS tape).

He is a freakish athlete at 7'1. I don't personally care about the era or style of play. If there is someone out there like that; you take the chance.