Minnesota Sports Forum

Q12543 wrote:I'm finally watching the Last Dance too; well into it now with just a couple episodes left. It's funny seeing how reliant he was on that mid-range turnaround jumper. It was a major go-to move for him (and eventually Kobe too), but now it's considered one of the worst shots in basketball. And we all need to keep in mind that he put up those offensive numbers in a league where scores like 92-84 were commonplace.

Q12543 wrote:I'm finally watching the Last Dance too; well into it now with just a couple episodes left. It's funny seeing how reliant he was on that mid-range turnaround jumper. It was a major go-to move for him (and eventually Kobe too), but now it's considered one of the worst shots in basketball. And we all need to keep in mind that he put up those offensive numbers in a league where scores like 92-84 were commonplace.

monsterpile wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:I finally watched the game where Luka put up those numbers. Of course, that wasn't an anomaly. Luka led the League in triple doubts this season.

I think it's clear that Luka isn't just an all-star level player; he's a foundational elite player who you can build a championship team around. My question for discussion in this thread is this: What makes Luka such a great player?

He's not a great athlete or particularly fast. While he has good size, he's not freakishly long and he doesn't have a chiseled muscular frame. So what is it about him that makes him so good?

Coming into that draft I could tell he was by far the best player, a once a decade type player. He has elite vision on the court first of all. His handle is great, his body control in tight places in traffic is superb. Solid not elite shooter but very good and getting better. Finishes well close to the rim.

I saw him as a LeBron minus the 44 inch vertical. He has similar skills in that way. The passing, handle, finishing.

I recommended trading up into the top 3 to get him, using Butler and pick/s to do so. However, we know how that turned out.

I think you're spot on, WolvesFan21. Luka is a reminder of the qualities that an NBA player has to have to great, at least if the player is a guard or wing. Those qualities are especially important for a player who lacks extraordinary speed, length or athleticism. They're the same qualities that made Larry Bird and Magic Johnson great in spite of their athletic limitations. I've attempted to identify these qualities as follows:

1. Extraordinary feel for the game. It's the vision thing. But I think it's also referred to as a high basketball IQ. By whatever name, I would describe it as the ability to see the game in slow motion (like Neo in the Matrix), to read the floor and anticipate what's going to happen, to anticipate where players will be before they get there and to spot a driving lane the split second it opens up.

2. A great handle combined with excellent body control and the ability to change speed and direction with the ball. The ability to change speed is less important for an Allen Iverson who has extraordinary speed, but it's still important and Allen was terrific at changing speeds and directions. This is another set of qualities the Andrew Wiggins lacks. He actually has terrific body control, but he has a poor handle.

3. A hyper competitiveness and intensity combined with a passion for the game. Great athletes like Andrew Wiggins and Derrick Williams lacked this third set of qualities.

I can't think of a great NBA guard or wing over the years who didn't have all these qualities. MJ had them along with extraordinary hops. Magic and Bird relied on these qualities more than MJ because they lacked the extraordinary athletic gifts of MJ Doctor J and others. There have been plenty of players with extraordinary athletic gifts who didn't make it in the NBA or who became little more than role players. But I've never seen a truly great Hall-of-Fame caliber NBA guard or wing who didn't have all three of the qualities I listed. An NBA big can be great without possessing the second quality I've listed, but he'll need the other two, or at least the third.

As I look ahead to this year's draft, I'm trying to figure out who might have these three qualities. I think LaMello Ball clearly you has the first two. But I wonder whether he has the third.

Edwards has the best set of physical tools among guards and wings in the draft, I think his handle is under appreciated and I've been impressed by his change of speed and direction. He seems to have the necessary hyper-competitive passion on the offensive end, but many believe it's missing on the defensive end. And I wonder about the extent of his feel for the game.

You are spot on. The things you can't easily measure is what he excels at.

You can have all the athletic ability but then the rest has to come from the mental side. Guys like Luka have the mentality and basketball IQ, guys like Wiggins don't. Though maybe Wiggins handle is a flaw from his lack of talent in that area of his genes.

Highly competitive, desire to be the best at all costs. This might be the most important one to me that isn't easily measured. Guys like Jordan had it. LeBron, etc. Guys like Wiggins may even be highly competitive in relative to the avg person, but to compare him to a Luka, LeBron or Jordan. Nope.

Like Bird and Magic, Luka has size and to some extent girth too combined with all that skill and ability...that's why I was so high on him. He isn't as long as Durant but he has enough size to play as a modern PF in this league and he is basically a lead guard in terms of skill.

Side note a couple weeks ago I started watching "Last Dance" and those numbers Jordon put up his rookie year are simply ridiculous. When I get done with the series I'll post more in that thread but the series is fantastic.

Camden wrote:

Q12543 wrote:I'm finally watching the Last Dance too; well into it now with just a couple episodes left. It's funny seeing how reliant he was on that mid-range turnaround jumper. It was a major go-to move for him (and eventually Kobe too), but now it's considered one of the worst shots in basketball. And we all need to keep in mind that he put up those offensive numbers in a league where scores like 92-84 were commonplace.

Good points here, but I'd argue that he was also more athletic than the league, as a whole, was at that point and absolutely benefited from it. I don't think the gap physically would be as large if he played today. Not to mention, defenses are much better schematically and perimeter shots are emphasized more in today's game. Jordan would likely still be an all-timer in the eras that followed him, but he would have had to drastically alter his play style and refine certain skills more. That's my unasked for take.

Q12543 wrote:I'm finally watching the Last Dance too; well into it now with just a couple episodes left. It's funny seeing how reliant he was on that mid-range turnaround jumper. It was a major go-to move for him (and eventually Kobe too), but now it's considered one of the worst shots in basketball. And we all need to keep in mind that he put up those offensive numbers in a league where scores like 92-84 were commonplace.

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:

Q12543 wrote:I'm finally watching the Last Dance too; well into it now with just a couple episodes left. It's funny seeing how reliant he was on that mid-range turnaround jumper. It was a major go-to move for him (and eventually Kobe too), but now it's considered one of the worst shots in basketball. And we all need to keep in mind that he put up those offensive numbers in a league where scores like 92-84 were commonplace.

Good points here, but I'd argue that he was also more athletic than the league, as a whole, was at that point and absolutely benefited from it. I don't think the gap physically would be as large if he played today. Not to mention, defenses are much better schematically and perimeter shots are emphasized more in today's game. Jordan would likely still be an all-timer in the eras that followed him, but he would have had to drastically alter his play style and refine certain skills more. That's my unasked for take.

Jordan was an athletic freak, but I'm not sure the League is a lot more athletic now.

In any event, the League allowed a lot more contact back then. Today's less physical game without hand-checking would have played to Jordan's strength on the offensive end, namely driving to the hoop. I agree that Jordan would have felt compelled to modify his game to fit today's emphasis on 3-point shooting.. I have no doubt he would have been successful in perfecting a highly reliable 3-pointer if he came into the League today instead of 1984. We saw Jordan perfect and rely much more on his fade-away midrange when he came back from his first retirement, older and a step slower. He was smart and doggedly determined to be successful as a player. He would master anything that would help his game.

He's still the League's all-time leader in points per game, and if not for his first retirement and missing most of his second season with a broken foot, he'd also probably be ahead of Kareem as the all-time leader in points. Imagine his numbers if he came into the League today after three years in college perfecting his three-point shot and then playing in a League that doesn't allow hand-checking or anything close to the physical defense he faced in his era. Who knows, perhaps he would top Wilt's 100-point performance once or twice.

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Luka Doncic is a superstar. And several reasons have been cited for it.

I'd also add that he entered the league THINKING he was a star. His entitlement with the officials from basically his first game was almost comical. But it's all part of "playing the game."

He's been able to back it up with his play. And is getting superstar treatment from the officials and he's only 20.




[Note: Meanwhile, after sitting through Kevin Love arguing about a lack of respect from officials, we now sit through Towns doing the same thing. Reason #2,987 why building around a big guy is a failed premise in today's NBA.]

Kind of agree, although if KAT utilized all of his gifts to be a two-way player, I think his overall impact on the team and in wins would make him a much more compelling cornerstone. And that's the key difference. A Luka, Harden, or Curry can control the game offensively way more than KAT, thus making their defensive deficiency less meaningful. KAT has to perform on both ends to justify "build around" status. And that simply isn't going to happen at this point.