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Re: DLO and Beasley
Posted: Sun May 01, 2022 2:56 pm
by FNG
Q-was-here wrote:FNG wrote:I have strong opinions about Russell, and they were reinforced during the playoffs. On the positive side, I completely agree with Lip about him being a terrific teammate. I first noticed this while going to several games late last season and focusing on his interaction with his teammates. I have to admit I was surprised, because my impression of DLO was admittedly colored by the immaturity he displayed early in his career. But he has grown up, and frankly he is one of my favorite guys on the team from a personality perspective. He's smart, thoughtful, and seldom makes comments that make me roll my eyes (hello KAT).
My problem with DLO is that I see him as a below average basketball player absorbing over 1/4 of our payroll. I saw improvement in his game this season, but in many ways, his performance mirrored the performance of the Wolves. I'm not on board with the prevailing opinion here that "a win is a win"...beating a team missing 2 or more key players doesn't tell me enough about how good we are. And my sense was that DLO feasted on the injured teams we were fortunate to play most of this bizarre season. I was worried about how he would show up against a Grizzly team playing at full strength, and frankly his poor performance in the playoffs was not at all a surprise.
I hear $20M thrown out here as a fair offer for DLO, but I'm not on board...that's far too much to devote to a guy who measures out below average in stats that really matter to me. He has a reputation of being a good shooter, but the numbers just don't support this reputation. His TS% both this year and for his career is significantly below the league average. He has never had a positive net rating for a season on basketballreference,com, even in his "all star" season, and his career negative net rating of 9 is rivaled only by Andrew Wiggins among max players (and Wig is actually just a titch better). And while I had moments this year when I saw improvement in his defense, his numbers once again were not very good. He benefited from playing free safety next to PatBev and at times looked like he was figuring it out, but it was clear Finchy struggled to find ways to hide him on defense in the playoffs. Being benched in favor of a reserve being paid $2 million a year in a critical elimination game (a move that I suspect few here challenged) should tell us everything we need to know about DLO's value in big games.
So as much as I like him personally, moving DLO in this off season has to be priority 1 for our Wolves. I'm more than ready to roll with Beverly and J-Mac at PG (with Wright or a free agent as a third option) with the goal of trading DLO for a PF who can shore up our horrible rebounding that ultimately cost us against Memphis. The good news? While DLO's advanced stats are generally below the league average, his raw stats are rather impressive...18.1 PPG and 7.1 APG might attract the attention of some NBA GM's, and convince them to give up a PF that can really improve us where we need it most,
I keep Beasley (am I the only one who thought he was pretty solid defensively in the playoffs?), draft someone who can rebound, and resign Prince, but make every effort to move DLO. I'm convinced a team with KAT and DLO absorbing half the salary cap will never be successful.
FNG sighting! Where ya been?
As a long-suffering Wolves fan and also a big baseball guy, I'm conditioned to turn my attention to baseball once the calendar turns to April, Q :-( . That said, I watched every minute of the Memphis series and thoroughly enjoyed the Wolves' performance. Frustrating to be sure with a series upset win in our grasp, but also very exciting.
Re: DLO and Beasley
Posted: Sun May 01, 2022 2:59 pm
by Q-is-here
FNG wrote:Q-was-here wrote:FNG wrote:I have strong opinions about Russell, and they were reinforced during the playoffs. On the positive side, I completely agree with Lip about him being a terrific teammate. I first noticed this while going to several games late last season and focusing on his interaction with his teammates. I have to admit I was surprised, because my impression of DLO was admittedly colored by the immaturity he displayed early in his career. But he has grown up, and frankly he is one of my favorite guys on the team from a personality perspective. He's smart, thoughtful, and seldom makes comments that make me roll my eyes (hello KAT).
My problem with DLO is that I see him as a below average basketball player absorbing over 1/4 of our payroll. I saw improvement in his game this season, but in many ways, his performance mirrored the performance of the Wolves. I'm not on board with the prevailing opinion here that "a win is a win"...beating a team missing 2 or more key players doesn't tell me enough about how good we are. And my sense was that DLO feasted on the injured teams we were fortunate to play most of this bizarre season. I was worried about how he would show up against a Grizzly team playing at full strength, and frankly his poor performance in the playoffs was not at all a surprise.
I hear $20M thrown out here as a fair offer for DLO, but I'm not on board...that's far too much to devote to a guy who measures out below average in stats that really matter to me. He has a reputation of being a good shooter, but the numbers just don't support this reputation. His TS% both this year and for his career is significantly below the league average. He has never had a positive net rating for a season on basketballreference,com, even in his "all star" season, and his career negative net rating of 9 is rivaled only by Andrew Wiggins among max players (and Wig is actually just a titch better). And while I had moments this year when I saw improvement in his defense, his numbers once again were not very good. He benefited from playing free safety next to PatBev and at times looked like he was figuring it out, but it was clear Finchy struggled to find ways to hide him on defense in the playoffs. Being benched in favor of a reserve being paid $2 million a year in a critical elimination game (a move that I suspect few here challenged) should tell us everything we need to know about DLO's value in big games.
So as much as I like him personally, moving DLO in this off season has to be priority 1 for our Wolves. I'm more than ready to roll with Beverly and J-Mac at PG (with Wright or a free agent as a third option) with the goal of trading DLO for a PF who can shore up our horrible rebounding that ultimately cost us against Memphis. The good news? While DLO's advanced stats are generally below the league average, his raw stats are rather impressive...18.1 PPG and 7.1 APG might attract the attention of some NBA GM's, and convince them to give up a PF that can really improve us where we need it most,
I keep Beasley (am I the only one who thought he was pretty solid defensively in the playoffs?), draft someone who can rebound, and resign Prince, but make every effort to move DLO. I'm convinced a team with KAT and DLO absorbing half the salary cap will never be successful.
FNG sighting! Where ya been?
As a long-suffering Wolves fan and also a big baseball guy, I'm conditioned to turn my attention to baseball once the calendar turns to April, Q :-( . That said, I watched every minute of the Memphis series and thoroughly enjoyed the Wolves' performance. Frustrating to be sure with a series upset win in our grasp, but also very exciting.
Awesome! And it looks like the Twins are indeed deserving of your emotional capital, as they are rolling right now!
Re: DLO and Beasley
Posted: Sun May 01, 2022 3:00 pm
by Monster
lipoli390 wrote:D-Mac wrote:So you think Dlo is a plus defender? I like your write ups, but maybe give that comment a little more thought :) I'm honestly tired of hearing how how Dlo has a high basketball IQ... he makes some of the worst, I'll advised passes I've ever seen, and takes way too many terrible shots. At least Beasley plays with some damn fire. Dlo does not. I'm also tired of his apathy being mistaken as him being a good teammate. To me, I look at both of these guys as expiring contracts. If they can be useful in trades, great; if they're both here all of next season, that's fine too. Like I've been saying for awhile, our big 3 includes jaden, not Dlo.
See Kek's post on your point about DLO's defense. :). So I don't think I was way out on a limb suggested that DLO was a plus defender this season. Maybe marginally plus, but still plus. :). Regarding his basketball IQ, I see your point and I struggle with the high IQ label for DLO. But while I've seen those same bad passes you're referring to, I've seen him make some really terrific passes based on anticipating where his teammates will be and what defenders are likely to do. So I do think he has a high basketball IQ, but I also think he gets careless too often.
By the way, great posts by everyone so far. This was the sort of debate I wanted to trigger. As always, some great information and insights from you guys.
Lip I think part of the BBIQ that you are seeing is what Russell seems to have off the floor. Normally this only means so much but I think it does matter some because Towns loses himself and Beverly is pretty intense (dude is a smart basketball player though) and I think Russell's IQ or different approach helps.
There are a couple things about Russell that I will point out. He is a guy that can score and also play make. I thought he did a better job for the season figuring out which to do when this year and that was a big deal. There were too many times before that he would just come down and jack up a shot and then do it again etc. I'm not saying he doesn't still do this but it seemed he found a better feel for that. Now in the Memphis series he was often too passive seeming. Towns got ripped for not taking more shots. The thing is that at times the Wolves were just humming along nobody needed to insert themselves and that includes both Towns and Russell. Of course at times they needed to play smart and take more care of the basketball (Beverly was guilty of being careless at times too) but it didn't always happen or they didn't come through. Russell did shot over 38% from 3 it was his other shots inside the 3 point line that he couldn't convert. It's also worth remembering that Memphis was a top 10 defensive team that also scored a ton of points. The Wolves especially Russell wasn't struggling against a middle of the road basketball team. I mentioned this after game 5 I think but does anyone know who was guarding Russell most of the time in the series? I don't think it was Ja or Tyus I think Memphis striped to put a stronger defender on him and let Beverly do stuff if he wanted. I'm not saying Russell is fine or whatever I just think there are some nuances to consider. Both he and Towns are also not physically able to just will themselves to beat opponents. Russell doesn't have the skill level of a HOF player and while his size helps he just isn't the guy physically that can just do the thing. Anthony Edwards on the other hand...
Also idk what level of defense he is at now but it's better than it was previously with the Wolves. I tend to think he now is a guy that can be part of a team defense and previously the whole team pretty much sucked. Now with a roster with some better players and people bought in he looks better and also can help more.
Re: DLO and Beasley
Posted: Sun May 01, 2022 3:21 pm
by Monster
lipoli390 wrote:So far, there seems to be a consensus that DLO isn't a max player and that the Wolves should NOT extend him beyond this next season. While some of us haven't hit the point where we just want to unload him, there seems to be consensus that we should move on from him if we can find a suitable replacement as our starting PG. But that's easier said than done, especially given the team's priority need to add a quality starting big who can improve the Wolves rebounding and overall inside defense. And a suitable alternative in my view would have to be someone who would produce at least the same winning metrics as DLO when he's on the floor with KAT. I agree with others who say we can't count on JMac as our starter and I agree with Q that we can't count on Pat Bev either given his age and injury propensity.
On McLaughlin I may have been the biggest fan of his ever since he played for the Wolves in the Summer league. In this series he played well. He also played against a similar player in Tyus who is a good player but not an imposing physical player. He is bigger and stronger than McLaughlin but McLaughlin is a better athlete no question. It was likely a good matchup for him. Now the realities are like Q said McLaughlin has flaws too. His 3 point shooting for the season was poor although he shot very well from 2. Overall he isn't a threat to score which also makes his ability to play make maybe a little more impressive especially since he usually shares the floor with someone else that handles the ball a lot. The thing is that a guy like him who is a true PG and seems to absolutely know what to do and not do he doesn't have to be a great shooter etc although hitting shots sure does help! I think if we would feel comfortable saying he has now ascended to being worthy of being counted on as a legit NBA backup PG (it seems like to some extent he has always been this guy) who can play legit rotation minutes that's a big deal for a guy that was undrafted and getting paid about 2 million a year. If he is a quality backup for the next 5 years of his career that would be a win.
As for who could replace Russell...
Dennis Schroeder (the guy that Russell should be looking at when considering looking for big money) probably would be relatively cheap. Maybe The Pels would be willing to deal Graham. What would Delon Wright (ok he might not be good enough) cost? Those are just a couple options off the top of my head. I don't think it would be absolutely simple to replace Russell but in terms of general production I'm not sure it would be that hard to do.
Again he is a starting level guard he isn't worth a bunch of money. He might figure that out a little over a year from now and end up resigning with the Wolves for a solid amount. Maybe the Wolves decide to move on from him instead and he signs that deal with another team. I would not completely close the door on a Russell extension IF...Russell actually would be willing to get paid what I think his market value is. That would also make him relatively tradeable.
Re: DLO and Beasley
Posted: Sun May 01, 2022 3:21 pm
by Coolbreeze44
I think the easiest positions to find are PG and PF. If that's true, the Wolves are in pretty good shape. They have an all NBA big, who is a mental midget but still a very good player. They have the 2-guard position solved for 10 years. I think Jaden will develop into a dynamic starter at the 3. A front office worth their salt should be able to find the PG & PF pieces through a combination of the draft and free agency. We're probably going to need that cap space from DLO's contract though.
Re: DLO and Beasley
Posted: Sun May 01, 2022 3:26 pm
by Monster
CoolBreeze44 wrote:I think the easiest positions to find are PG and PF. If that's true, the Wolves are in pretty good shape. They have an all NBA big, who is a mental midget but still a very good player. They have the 2-guard position solved for 10 years. I think Jaden will develop into a dynamic starter at the 3. A front office worth their salt should be able to find the PG & PF pieces through a combination of the draft and free agency. We're probably going to need that cap space from DLO's contract though.
Cool I think you are right about the PG or a guard that can play next to Edwards but there are a lot of teams that have struggled to get a PF the last couple years. Part of what makes it so challenging is the league has gone small but yet if you want a good PF they still need to do some PF type things. What is Bobby Portis going to get paid this offseason?
Re: DLO and Beasley
Posted: Sun May 01, 2022 3:29 pm
by FNG
Carlos Danger wrote:Q-was-here wrote:
All good points. What would you suggest we do then this offseason? PBev is only going to miss more and more games and be less effective as he ages, so do we really want to pencil him in as our starting PG next year?
As for Lil' Mac, how soon we forget some of his struggles. Let's remember he's actually older than Malik Beasley, so it's not like he has a ton of upside left. Love him as a 2nd or 3rd string PG, but not sure he's built to play 25+ MPG as a Western Conference starting PG.
I like JMac. But I understand his limitations. People are right in saying "he's a backup". My plan would be to use the money they would otherwise spend on DLO to get a stud PF next to Towns. I know - easier said than done. But that's my perfect scenario.
As for PG, I'm not sure who's out there for Free Agents. Ideally, find a vet guy with a reasonable contract to give depth behind PBev/JMac. They don't have to score 20 points/game. As others have stated many times, this has to be the Anthony Edwards show going forward. Edwards #1a option. Towns #1b. I want both those guys taking more shots next year.
Anthony, I don't know if you are Twin-Cities based, but Jim Souhan mentioned in the Strib today a free agent PG from Apple Valley who would look pretty good next to KAT, Ant, Jaden and the PF we get in exchange for DLO.
Re: DLO and Beasley
Posted: Sun May 01, 2022 3:32 pm
by Coolbreeze44
monsterpile wrote:CoolBreeze44 wrote:I think the easiest positions to find are PG and PF. If that's true, the Wolves are in pretty good shape. They have an all NBA big, who is a mental midget but still a very good player. They have the 2-guard position solved for 10 years. I think Jaden will develop into a dynamic starter at the 3. A front office worth their salt should be able to find the PG & PF pieces through a combination of the draft and free agency. We're probably going to need that cap space from DLO's contract though.
Cool I think you are right about the PG or a guard that can play next to Edwards but there are a lot of teams that have struggled to get a PF the last couple years. Part of what makes it so challenging is the league has gone small but yet if you want a good PF they still need to do some PF type things. What is Bobby Portis going to get paid this offseason?
Monster, I think you would agree we didn't even try to find a power forward before this year. Not sure what Rosas was thinking there. Portis signed a two year deal before this season if I remember right. But yes, he would be perfect.
Re: DLO and Beasley
Posted: Sun May 01, 2022 4:20 pm
by Carlos Danger
FNG wrote:
Anthony, I don't know if you are Twin-Cities based, but Jim Souhan mentioned in the Strib today a free agent PG from Apple Valley who would look pretty good next to KAT, Ant, Jaden and the PF we get in exchange for DLO.
Yep - I did see that. Here's a link for anyone interested. It's pretty similar to what we discussing here:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/souhan-wolves-ups-downs-russell-215100424.html
Re: DLO and Beasley
Posted: Sun May 01, 2022 6:12 pm
by FNG
Q-was-here wrote:FNG wrote:Q-was-here wrote:FNG wrote:I have strong opinions about Russell, and they were reinforced during the playoffs. On the positive side, I completely agree with Lip about him being a terrific teammate. I first noticed this while going to several games late last season and focusing on his interaction with his teammates. I have to admit I was surprised, because my impression of DLO was admittedly colored by the immaturity he displayed early in his career. But he has grown up, and frankly he is one of my favorite guys on the team from a personality perspective. He's smart, thoughtful, and seldom makes comments that make me roll my eyes (hello KAT).
My problem with DLO is that I see him as a below average basketball player absorbing over 1/4 of our payroll. I saw improvement in his game this season, but in many ways, his performance mirrored the performance of the Wolves. I'm not on board with the prevailing opinion here that "a win is a win"...beating a team missing 2 or more key players doesn't tell me enough about how good we are. And my sense was that DLO feasted on the injured teams we were fortunate to play most of this bizarre season. I was worried about how he would show up against a Grizzly team playing at full strength, and frankly his poor performance in the playoffs was not at all a surprise.
I hear $20M thrown out here as a fair offer for DLO, but I'm not on board...that's far too much to devote to a guy who measures out below average in stats that really matter to me. He has a reputation of being a good shooter, but the numbers just don't support this reputation. His TS% both this year and for his career is significantly below the league average. He has never had a positive net rating for a season on basketballreference,com, even in his "all star" season, and his career negative net rating of 9 is rivaled only by Andrew Wiggins among max players (and Wig is actually just a titch better). And while I had moments this year when I saw improvement in his defense, his numbers once again were not very good. He benefited from playing free safety next to PatBev and at times looked like he was figuring it out, but it was clear Finchy struggled to find ways to hide him on defense in the playoffs. Being benched in favor of a reserve being paid $2 million a year in a critical elimination game (a move that I suspect few here challenged) should tell us everything we need to know about DLO's value in big games.
So as much as I like him personally, moving DLO in this off season has to be priority 1 for our Wolves. I'm more than ready to roll with Beverly and J-Mac at PG (with Wright or a free agent as a third option) with the goal of trading DLO for a PF who can shore up our horrible rebounding that ultimately cost us against Memphis. The good news? While DLO's advanced stats are generally below the league average, his raw stats are rather impressive...18.1 PPG and 7.1 APG might attract the attention of some NBA GM's, and convince them to give up a PF that can really improve us where we need it most,
I keep Beasley (am I the only one who thought he was pretty solid defensively in the playoffs?), draft someone who can rebound, and resign Prince, but make every effort to move DLO. I'm convinced a team with KAT and DLO absorbing half the salary cap will never be successful.
FNG sighting! Where ya been?
As a long-suffering Wolves fan and also a big baseball guy, I'm conditioned to turn my attention to baseball once the calendar turns to April, Q :-( . That said, I watched every minute of the Memphis series and thoroughly enjoyed the Wolves' performance. Frustrating to be sure with a series upset win in our grasp, but also very exciting.
Awesome! And it looks like the Twins are indeed deserving of your emotional capital, as they are rolling right now!
They certainly are...fun team to watch right now!