Minnesota Sports Forum

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Honestly there are too many factors to really pick 1 of these over another there are a lot of very good options which proves Q's point he has been making for a couple years that the league's depth of talent is Tre best ever. The team I would eliminate first very easily is Denver. Jokic is amazing, I love Millsap but how many years does he have and Murray a guy I liked going into that draft has not looked that enticing.

I think Gary Harris would be considered part of the core over Murray.

The knock on him though is that he improved A LOT his first three years... signed a big extension... and then has seemed to level off this season. It's early, but you need to have your young promising players to get better every season if they're going to be difference makers.

Good point on Harris as a possible core guy. I haven't seen him play this year but he is one of 6 players on that team averaging double digits. He shoots a high percentage and seems to be able to do plenty of good things. He turned 23 a couple months ago. One other issue with him is he has had some problems staying healthy. Another guy you could make a case of over Murray is Mudiay. He is only a year older and so far this year he has shown some good signs. Denver has a pretty nice collection of young talent.

bleedspeed177 wrote:I have the lone vote for Celtics. I picked them primarily because I know they are coached by Stevens.

You get to choose the threesome, but you don't get to choose the head coach. :).

monsterpile wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Honestly there are too many factors to really pick 1 of these over another there are a lot of very good options which proves Q's point he has been making for a couple years that the league's depth of talent is Tre best ever. The team I would eliminate first very easily is Denver. Jokic is amazing, I love Millsap but how many years does he have and Murray a guy I liked going into that draft has not looked that enticing.

I think Gary Harris would be considered part of the core over Murray.

The knock on him though is that he improved A LOT his first three years... signed a big extension... and then has seemed to level off this season. It's early, but you need to have your young promising players to get better every season if they're going to be difference makers.

Good point on Harris as a possible core guy. I haven't seen him play this year but he is one of 6 players on that team averaging double digits. He shoots a high percentage and seems to be able to do plenty of good things. He turned 23 a couple months ago. One other issue with him is he has had some problems staying healthy. Another guy you could make a case of over Murray is Mudiay. He is only a year older and so far this year he has shown some good signs. Denver has a pretty nice collection of young talent.

I don't think too many people (including Denver) are taking Mudiay over Murray... and definitely not Harris.

There's a reason the Nuggets gave Harris a $74M extension... and reasons why Mudiay couldn't beat out Jameer Nelson for a starting gig last season.

Think of Harris as a version of Otto Porter. A solid shooter and defender who doesn't need to dominate the ball. A great complementary piece who is a plus on the court as a 3-and-D type. No surprise both got big deals. Mudiay is subpar at almost everything in his role as a PG. If we look beyond the surface stats:

- Harris has +1.5 OBPM and 0.0 DBPM.
- Mudiay has -1.2 OBPM and -2.2 DBPM.

Last year, Harris had 4.6 WinShares... and Mudiay had 0.2.

lipoli390 wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:I have the lone vote for Celtics. I picked them primarily because I know they are coached by Stevens.

You get to choose the threesome, but you don't get to choose the head coach. :).

There's already a ton of smoke up there... but let me add some more...

Brad Stevens is arguably the league's 2nd best coach already... and possibly top in-game strategist. He's amazing. Truly amazing. And when you consider the crazy things he accomplished back in college, taking Butler to TWO National Title games (the one without Gordon Hayward was remarkable)... and I firmly believe we're watching one of the best NBA coaches in history just getting started.

A lot of NBA coaches are largely interchangeable. Some horrific (Rambis division). Some decent but not great (D. Casey division). Some pretty good (Adelman division). And then there are some who just seem different... just better than everybody else and it permeates through the entire franchise (Popovich division).

There's a culture/vibe in Boston despite all the changes. And it starts with Stevens.

Great discussion. I started this thread after looking at the Monday night box scores. The Sixers and Bucks both won that night. Giannis had 27 points 9 rebounds and 7 assists that night -- which is pretty typical for him -- and it was in a winning cause. In the Sixers' win, Embiid had 32 points and 16 boards, Simmons had 22 points, 12 boards and 4 assists, and Covington had 31 points and 6 boards. Importantly, the performances that night by Giannis, Embiid and Simmons weren't unusual. And Covington's performance, while not typical for him, wasn't a huge surprise.

My initial thought that night was that wished we had what the Sixers have. Then I started thinking of some of the other teams with nice young cores. Hence this poll. I initially voted for our own core three, but that was only because of my concerns about Embiid's long-term health. But after reading the comments of others, I think I'd change my vote to the Sixers in spite of Embiid's health concerns.

The case for the Sixers is even more compelling when you expand the analysis to encompass each team's top young 4. That would bring Fultz into the fold, which makes the Sixers an even more compelling choice. I'm not sure who that would bring in for the Wolves. I think Teague is our 4th best player, but he's 29 so he's not in the age range I had in mind. Even Butler is a stretch at age 28. Expanding the Bucks to 4 core young players would probably bring Parker into the picture. If he ever gets and stays healthy, he'll be very good. And who knows about Thon Maker.

I'm not complaining about having KAT, Wiggins and Butler as our core three. In addition, I've always liked Gorgui and I'm please so far with Teague. That's a nice core 5 players under 30. But it's hard not to be impressive by some of the other collections of young talented players around the League.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:I have the lone vote for Celtics. I picked them primarily because I know they are coached by Stevens.

You get to choose the threesome, but you don't get to choose the head coach. :).

There's already a ton of smoke up there... but let me add some more...

Brad Stevens is arguably the league's 2nd best coach already... and possibly top in-game strategist. He's amazing. Truly amazing. And when you consider the crazy things he accomplished back in college, taking Butler to TWO National Title games (the one without Gordon Hayward was remarkable)... and I firmly believe we're watching one of the best NBA coaches in history just getting started.

A lot of NBA coaches are largely interchangeable. Some horrific (Rambis division). Some decent but not great (D. Casey division). Some pretty good (Adelman division). And then there are some who just seem different... just better than everybody else and it permeates through the entire franchise (Popovich division).

There's a culture/vibe in Boston despite all the changes. And it starts with Stevens.

Abe -- I love your divisions, especially the Rambis Division, which you hilariously but accurately characterized as "horrific." I agree with you examples and descriptions. Question: In which division would you put Thibs?

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:I have the lone vote for Celtics. I picked them primarily because I know they are coached by Stevens.

You get to choose the threesome, but you don't get to choose the head coach. :).

There's already a ton of smoke up there... but let me add some more...

Brad Stevens is arguably the league's 2nd best coach already... and possibly top in-game strategist. He's amazing. Truly amazing. And when you consider the crazy things he accomplished back in college, taking Butler to TWO National Title games (the one without Gordon Hayward was remarkable)... and I firmly believe we're watching one of the best NBA coaches in history just getting started.

A lot of NBA coaches are largely interchangeable. Some horrific (Rambis division). Some decent but not great (D. Casey division). Some pretty good (Adelman division). And then there are some who just seem different... just better than everybody else and it permeates through the entire franchise (Popovich division).

There's a culture/vibe in Boston despite all the changes. And it starts with Stevens.

Abe -- I love your divisions, especially the Rambis Division, which you hilariously but accurately characterized as "horrific." I agree with you examples and descriptions. Question: In which division would you put Thibs?

I was thinking he was in the Adelman camp when he was signed. It's been D. Casey-esque though. And to be fair... that decent division covers a wide range of coaches. And that's by design.

As I said, I think most NBA coaches are largely interchangeable and overall decent. Only a select few can change an entire culture for a franchise.

Pop can. Stevens can. And... yes... even Rambis can (in a very different way).

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Honestly there are too many factors to really pick 1 of these over another there are a lot of very good options which proves Q's point he has been making for a couple years that the league's depth of talent is Tre best ever. The team I would eliminate first very easily is Denver. Jokic is amazing, I love Millsap but how many years does he have and Murray a guy I liked going into that draft has not looked that enticing.

I think Gary Harris would be considered part of the core over Murray.

The knock on him though is that he improved A LOT his first three years... signed a big extension... and then has seemed to level off this season. It's early, but you need to have your young promising players to get better every season if they're going to be difference makers.

Good point on Harris as a possible core guy. I haven't seen him play this year but he is one of 6 players on that team averaging double digits. He shoots a high percentage and seems to be able to do plenty of good things. He turned 23 a couple months ago. One other issue with him is he has had some problems staying healthy. Another guy you could make a case of over Murray is Mudiay. He is only a year older and so far this year he has shown some good signs. Denver has a pretty nice collection of young talent.

I don't think too many people (including Denver) are taking Mudiay over Murray... and definitely not Harris.

There's a reason the Nuggets gave Harris a $74M extension... and reasons why Mudiay couldn't beat out Jameer Nelson for a starting gig last season.

Think of Harris as a version of Otto Porter. A solid shooter and defender who doesn't need to dominate the ball. A great complementary piece who is a plus on the court as a 3-and-D type. No surprise both got big deals. Mudiay is subpar at almost everything in his role as a PG. If we look beyond the surface stats:

- Harris has +1.5 OBPM and 0.0 DBPM.
- Mudiay has -1.2 OBPM and -2.2 DBPM.

Last year, Harris had 4.6 WinShares... and Mudiay had 0.2.

Absolutely Harris over Mudiay you encapsulated him well as a complementary guy.*

Notice I said someone COULD make a case for Mudiay because of what he has done this year. Like you pointed out this would have been laughable last year but this year surprisingly it's not insane. If Mudiay turns out to be worthwhile as a rotation guard Denver probably is thrilled because it wasn't looking good.

*Covington is basically this really good complimentary guy and the Sixers were able to find this guy off the D-League scrap heap and develop him. For all the trust the process stuff they have found a couple worthwhile players that weren't the lottery picks guys.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:I have the lone vote for Celtics. I picked them primarily because I know they are coached by Stevens.

You get to choose the threesome, but you don't get to choose the head coach. :).

There's already a ton of smoke up there... but let me add some more...

Brad Stevens is arguably the league's 2nd best coach already... and possibly top in-game strategist. He's amazing. Truly amazing. And when you consider the crazy things he accomplished back in college, taking Butler to TWO National Title games (the one without Gordon Hayward was remarkable)... and I firmly believe we're watching one of the best NBA coaches in history just getting started.

A lot of NBA coaches are largely interchangeable. Some horrific (Rambis division). Some decent but not great (D. Casey division). Some pretty good (Adelman division). And then there are some who just seem different... just better than everybody else and it permeates through the entire franchise (Popovich division).

There's a culture/vibe in Boston despite all the changes. And it starts with Stevens.

Abe -- I love your divisions, especially the Rambis Division, which you hilariously but accurately characterized as "horrific." I agree with you examples and descriptions. Question: In which division would you put Thibs?

I was thinking he was in the Adelman camp when he was signed. It's been D. Casey-esque though. And to be fair... that decent division covers a wide range of coaches. And that's by design.

As I said, I think most NBA coaches are largely interchangeable and overall decent. Only a select few can change an entire culture for a franchise.

Pop can. Stevens can. And... yes... even Rambis can (in a very different way).

Spolstra might be one of those guys in a good way. It will be interesting to see how this season unfolds.

I think the idea that the Celtics players are being coached by Stevens Briggs up an angle I hadn't considered. Are any of these options more dependent on having the right coach more than others? There has been some talk about Kidd not being the right coach for the Bucks and him maybe being the Mark Jackson guy that will need to be replaced to send that team to new heights.

Thibs hasn't looked like a top level coach so far. What I think isn't clear is exactly what his end game has been as a coach. Last year he basically played young guys as much as possible with a few exceptions. This offseason he went out and got some win now guys that know how to play but he is also playing a couple young guys in Bazz and Tyus minutes he could have easily given to other vets like Brooks who is on the roster or some vet wing they could have easily signed instead of Bazz. He seems more willing to give young players a chance to develop getting minutes. Now how those minutes are used may be questioned. He has done some things much differently than expected. He is unlikely to be going anywhere soon so hopefully he is at least in the Adelman group although Dwayne Casey isn't a bad place to be. Regardless if he was part of this equation picking between these options it's hard to consider him an asset compared to many of the other combos with various coaches.

I think there were a few of us coveting Covington (see what I did there?) this past offseason, but Philly had that cheap option on him. Damn, he would look great as our 3rd wing!!!

I agree with Abe. What Stevens did at Butler and now with Boston is incredible. He has to be considered an elite coach at this point. I know he has Al Horford, who I love, but there is no way most other NBA coaches could take that roster and make it elite defensively.