Minnesota Sports Forum

BizarroJerry wrote:How is Wiggy doing on the guy he's guarding? We throw a lot of stats around and his lack of consistent hustle is terrible, but is his man able to drive on him? Is Wiggy stopping 3 point shooters? Give me some eye test info.

I think he's doing solid in man-to-man situations. But I still don't think he does enough "team defending", i.e. making the extra effort to take a charge, chase down a guy in transition, get deflections, box out, etc. I know others will disagree, but my eyes don't see a guy that impacts the game much defensively. He is certainly much better than our two bench wings.....

I was at the game yesterday, and there were two big takeaways for me.

The first being Thibs' inability to ride hot hands/lineups. Teague started out playing average basketball, and Tyus came in to galvanize the troops, yet Thibs' moved on from Tyus way too soon and took way too long to play him again. Belly is in the same boat. I vote for that guy as the complete glue to our team so far. He always makes the right play, is never selfishly motivated, plays great team defense. All of which warrants more playing time than he is given. Thibs is way too rigid in his approach. Everything seems overly calculated, with no room for manipulation. He has his cards cemented before the flop happens.

The second, our team needs to be feeding KAT when he is hot. I believe he was at 18/10 to start the third quarter, while every other starter was faltering. So, run everything through him. Feed him at the high post, on the block, etc. Manipulate the lineup to surround him with our best 3pt players to start the third. Force the opposing team to collapse on him, and force KAT to bully his way to another score or to hit the right man. I hate seeing this ISO perimeter ball over and over again. Simply hunting shots when we have such a great offensive talent in KAT who already has the hot hand. He needs way more touches.

We won, which I am/was ecstatic about. But there is tons of room for improvement, both from our players and maybe more so our coach.

Q12543 wrote:

BizarroJerry wrote:How is Wiggy doing on the guy he's guarding? We throw a lot of stats around and his lack of consistent hustle is terrible, but is his man able to drive on him? Is Wiggy stopping 3 point shooters? Give me some eye test info.

I think he's doing solid in man-to-man situations. But I still don't think he does enough "team defending", i.e. making the extra effort to take a charge, chase down a guy in transition, get deflections, box out, etc. I know others will disagree, but my eyes don't see a guy that impacts the game much defensively. He is certainly much better than our two bench wings.....

My eye test says he he doing better both as a man defender this year and getting hustle plays as well. The numbers on NBA.com have him doing basically the same as he did last year, but I have seen him actually sprint back multiple times this year in transition. when guys post him up he is not getting knocked back the same way he used to. I seems to be stronger and I've seen a lot more contests where he not only gets a hand up its right in the guy's face or near the ball. on the other end of the spectrum no surprise Butler is one of the league leaders in deflections and loose balls recovered.

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

BizarroJerry wrote:How is Wiggy doing on the guy he's guarding? We throw a lot of stats around and his lack of consistent hustle is terrible, but is his man able to drive on him? Is Wiggy stopping 3 point shooters? Give me some eye test info.

I think he's doing solid in man-to-man situations. But I still don't think he does enough "team defending", i.e. making the extra effort to take a charge, chase down a guy in transition, get deflections, box out, etc. I know others will disagree, but my eyes don't see a guy that impacts the game much defensively. He is certainly much better than our two bench wings.....

My eye test says he he doing better both as a man defender this year and getting hustle plays as well. The numbers on NBA.com have him doing basically the same as he did last year, but I have seen him actually sprint back multiple times this year in transition. when guys post him up he is not getting knocked back the same way he used to. I seems to be stronger and I've seen a lot more contests where he not only gets a hand up its right in the guy's face or near the ball. on the other end of the spectrum no surprise Butler is one of the league leaders in deflections and loose balls recovered.

Thanks guys. The couple games I watched I saw more hustle, but didn't necessarily see who he was guarding. And to Qs point, he never draws a charge, he's gotta have only a handful in his career. That's just baffling. He should be watching Butler videos on the plane.

Jerry, At this point, I'm resigned to the fact that Wiggins is never going to be an elite all around defender. It just isn't going to happen. But, he can certainly keep improving around the margins and be part of an good team defense. He has the size and athleticism to switch and not get taken to the woodshed too badly by either guards or bigs. But he's not ever going to be one of the straws that stirs the drink defensively. That will have to be others.

BizarroJerry wrote:How is Wiggy doing on the guy he's guarding? We throw a lot of stats around and his lack of consistent hustle is terrible, but is his man able to drive on him? Is Wiggy stopping 3 point shooters? Give me some eye test info.

Overall, I think Wiggins is playing better defensively, especially one-on-one defense but also overall hustle. But last night he reverted to his old, passive ball-watching self. It was so noticeable that it was weird. It really was as if he was on something -- weed or downers. But thankfully last night for Wiggins was the exception this season whereas last season it was pretty typical game to game.

TheFuture wrote:I was at the game yesterday, and there were two big takeaways for me.

The first being Thibs' inability to ride hot hands/lineups. Teague started out playing average basketball, and Tyus came in to galvanize the troops, yet Thibs' moved on from Tyus way too soon and took way too long to play him again. Belly is in the same boat. I vote for that guy as the complete glue to our team so far. He always makes the right play, is never selfishly motivated, plays great team defense. All of which warrants more playing time than he is given. Thibs is way too rigid in his approach. Everything seems overly calculated, with no room for manipulation. He has his cards cemented before the flop happens.

The second, our team needs to be feeding KAT when he is hot. I believe he was at 18/10 to start the third quarter, while every other starter was faltering. So, run everything through him. Feed him at the high post, on the block, etc. Manipulate the lineup to surround him with our best 3pt players to start the third. Force the opposing team to collapse on him, and force KAT to bully his way to another score or to hit the right man. I hate seeing this ISO perimeter ball over and over again. Simply hunting shots when we have such a great offensive talent in KAT who already has the hot hand. He needs way more touches.

We won, which I am/was ecstatic about. But there is tons of room for improvement, both from our players and maybe more so our coach.

I agree 100% Future. It was strange the way the team stopped feeding KAT after the 1st half. My wife commented that it was as if Thibs was determined to keep KAT's point total down. KAT was dominating offensively and Aldridge was in early foul trouble. Yet by not continuing to go to KAT, Thibs let Aldridge and the Spurs off the hook. I'd glad we won and our defense was the best it's been all season. But honestly, we could and should have scored more points.

I'm also bugged by our over-reliance on isolation play and the lack of ball-movement. Butler and Teague way over dribble, but I don't blame so much. I just don't see a design to the offense behind dribbling and hunting for isolation scoring plays with a few pick-and-rolls mixed in. Quite the contrast when I got home and watched the Sixers and Lakers play. No player held the ball for more than 3 or 4 seconds and often the ball never touched the ground as it was passed repeatedly to multiple moving and cutting players. For me it comes back to Thibs. Scary to think about how much better our already very good offense could be if well coached.

lipoli390 wrote:

TheFuture wrote:I was at the game yesterday, and there were two big takeaways for me.

The first being Thibs' inability to ride hot hands/lineups. Teague started out playing average basketball, and Tyus came in to galvanize the troops, yet Thibs' moved on from Tyus way too soon and took way too long to play him again. Belly is in the same boat. I vote for that guy as the complete glue to our team so far. He always makes the right play, is never selfishly motivated, plays great team defense. All of which warrants more playing time than he is given. Thibs is way too rigid in his approach. Everything seems overly calculated, with no room for manipulation. He has his cards cemented before the flop happens.

The second, our team needs to be feeding KAT when he is hot. I believe he was at 18/10 to start the third quarter, while every other starter was faltering. So, run everything through him. Feed him at the high post, on the block, etc. Manipulate the lineup to surround him with our best 3pt players to start the third. Force the opposing team to collapse on him, and force KAT to bully his way to another score or to hit the right man. I hate seeing this ISO perimeter ball over and over again. Simply hunting shots when we have such a great offensive talent in KAT who already has the hot hand. He needs way more touches.

We won, which I am/was ecstatic about. But there is tons of room for improvement, both from our players and maybe more so our coach.

I agree 100% Future. It was strange the way the team stopped feeding KAT after the 1st half. My wife commented that it was as if Thibs was determined to keep KAT's point total down. KAT was dominating offensively and Aldridge was in early foul trouble. Yet by not continuing to go to KAT, Thibs let Aldridge and the Spurs off the hook. I'd glad we won and our defense was the best it's been all season. But honestly, we could and should have scored more points.

I'm also bugged by our over-reliance on isolation play and the lack of ball-movement. Butler and Teague way over dribble, but I don't blame so much. I just don't see a design to the offense behind dribbling and hunting for isolation scoring plays with a few pick-and-rolls mixed in. Quite the contrast when I got home and watched the Sixers and Lakers play. No player held the ball for more than 3 or 4 seconds and often the ball never touched the ground as it was passed repeatedly to multiple moving and cutting players. For me it comes back to Thibs. Scary to think about how much better our already very good offense could be if well coached.

The problem is obvious compared to specifically the Sixers. They have 2 better shooters than the Wolves have. What Thibs is wanting is more towards positionless basketball. The only real specialists on the roster are Bazz and Aldrich. Everyone else can do a bit of everything and score from all over the court. Look at the bottom of the roster with guys like MGH, Brown and Patton having theoretical skills to do more than just shoot or play defense or attack. It come back to shooting we don't have a ton of it and therefore it gums things up and it will take some time to get guys figuring out when how to attack to open up 3 point shooters for easy looks. It is likely going to take some time to get that figured out. Could Thibs be doing better? Yes he could be but lets remember he is less than 1 1/4 seasons into this thing and this year quite a bit of roster turnover. I'll be curious to see what it looks like in another 20 games.

As for Towns I wonder what kind of "gravity" he attracts. Is he getting so much attention from teams its more difficult to get him involved than it seems at first glance? I'm genuinely curious about that when it comes to "gravity" that especially top level 3 point shooters especially Curry have which can have a significant effect.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

TheFuture wrote:I was at the game yesterday, and there were two big takeaways for me.

The first being Thibs' inability to ride hot hands/lineups. Teague started out playing average basketball, and Tyus came in to galvanize the troops, yet Thibs' moved on from Tyus way too soon and took way too long to play him again. Belly is in the same boat. I vote for that guy as the complete glue to our team so far. He always makes the right play, is never selfishly motivated, plays great team defense. All of which warrants more playing time than he is given. Thibs is way too rigid in his approach. Everything seems overly calculated, with no room for manipulation. He has his cards cemented before the flop happens.

The second, our team needs to be feeding KAT when he is hot. I believe he was at 18/10 to start the third quarter, while every other starter was faltering. So, run everything through him. Feed him at the high post, on the block, etc. Manipulate the lineup to surround him with our best 3pt players to start the third. Force the opposing team to collapse on him, and force KAT to bully his way to another score or to hit the right man. I hate seeing this ISO perimeter ball over and over again. Simply hunting shots when we have such a great offensive talent in KAT who already has the hot hand. He needs way more touches.

We won, which I am/was ecstatic about. But there is tons of room for improvement, both from our players and maybe more so our coach.

I agree 100% Future. It was strange the way the team stopped feeding KAT after the 1st half. My wife commented that it was as if Thibs was determined to keep KAT's point total down. KAT was dominating offensively and Aldridge was in early foul trouble. Yet by not continuing to go to KAT, Thibs let Aldridge and the Spurs off the hook. I'd glad we won and our defense was the best it's been all season. But honestly, we could and should have scored more points.

I'm also bugged by our over-reliance on isolation play and the lack of ball-movement. Butler and Teague way over dribble, but I don't blame so much. I just don't see a design to the offense behind dribbling and hunting for isolation scoring plays with a few pick-and-rolls mixed in. Quite the contrast when I got home and watched the Sixers and Lakers play. No player held the ball for more than 3 or 4 seconds and often the ball never touched the ground as it was passed repeatedly to multiple moving and cutting players. For me it comes back to Thibs. Scary to think about how much better our already very good offense could be if well coached.

The problem is obvious compared to specifically the Sixers. They have 2 better shooters than the Wolves have. What Thibs is wanting is more towards positionless basketball. The only real specialists on the roster are Bazz and Aldrich. Everyone else can do a bit of everything and score from all over the court. Look at the bottom of the roster with guys like MGH, Brown and Patton having theoretical skills to do more than just shoot or play defense or attack. It come back to shooting we don't have a ton of it and therefore it gums things up and it will take some time to get guys figuring out when how to attack to open up 3 point shooters for easy looks. It is likely going to take some time to get that figured out. Could Thibs be doing better? Yes he could be but lets remember he is less than 1 1/4 seasons into this thing and this year quite a bit of roster turnover. I'll be curious to see what it looks like in another 20 games.

As for Towns I wonder what kind of "gravity" he attracts. Is he getting so much attention from teams its more difficult to get him involved than it seems at first glance? I'm genuinely curious about that when it comes to "gravity" that especially top level 3 point shooters especially Curry have which can have a significant effect.

Just a theory on the KAT not getting touches when he is hot (its going to be way out there). Is there something to the affect that Kat is going to play about 40 minutes a night with Cole and Gorgui out. So if we keep feeding him every possession he is going to get tired, and we need him fresh on the defensive end. We have so many offensive weapons and because of injuries we need Kat "fresh" because he is so important in so many aspects of the game for the wolves.

Once again way out there theory.

kekgeek1 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

TheFuture wrote:I was at the game yesterday, and there were two big takeaways for me.

The first being Thibs' inability to ride hot hands/lineups. Teague started out playing average basketball, and Tyus came in to galvanize the troops, yet Thibs' moved on from Tyus way too soon and took way too long to play him again. Belly is in the same boat. I vote for that guy as the complete glue to our team so far. He always makes the right play, is never selfishly motivated, plays great team defense. All of which warrants more playing time than he is given. Thibs is way too rigid in his approach. Everything seems overly calculated, with no room for manipulation. He has his cards cemented before the flop happens.

The second, our team needs to be feeding KAT when he is hot. I believe he was at 18/10 to start the third quarter, while every other starter was faltering. So, run everything through him. Feed him at the high post, on the block, etc. Manipulate the lineup to surround him with our best 3pt players to start the third. Force the opposing team to collapse on him, and force KAT to bully his way to another score or to hit the right man. I hate seeing this ISO perimeter ball over and over again. Simply hunting shots when we have such a great offensive talent in KAT who already has the hot hand. He needs way more touches.

We won, which I am/was ecstatic about. But there is tons of room for improvement, both from our players and maybe more so our coach.

I agree 100% Future. It was strange the way the team stopped feeding KAT after the 1st half. My wife commented that it was as if Thibs was determined to keep KAT's point total down. KAT was dominating offensively and Aldridge was in early foul trouble. Yet by not continuing to go to KAT, Thibs let Aldridge and the Spurs off the hook. I'd glad we won and our defense was the best it's been all season. But honestly, we could and should have scored more points.

I'm also bugged by our over-reliance on isolation play and the lack of ball-movement. Butler and Teague way over dribble, but I don't blame so much. I just don't see a design to the offense behind dribbling and hunting for isolation scoring plays with a few pick-and-rolls mixed in. Quite the contrast when I got home and watched the Sixers and Lakers play. No player held the ball for more than 3 or 4 seconds and often the ball never touched the ground as it was passed repeatedly to multiple moving and cutting players. For me it comes back to Thibs. Scary to think about how much better our already very good offense could be if well coached.

The problem is obvious compared to specifically the Sixers. They have 2 better shooters than the Wolves have. What Thibs is wanting is more towards positionless basketball. The only real specialists on the roster are Bazz and Aldrich. Everyone else can do a bit of everything and score from all over the court. Look at the bottom of the roster with guys like MGH, Brown and Patton having theoretical skills to do more than just shoot or play defense or attack. It come back to shooting we don't have a ton of it and therefore it gums things up and it will take some time to get guys figuring out when how to attack to open up 3 point shooters for easy looks. It is likely going to take some time to get that figured out. Could Thibs be doing better? Yes he could be but lets remember he is less than 1 1/4 seasons into this thing and this year quite a bit of roster turnover. I'll be curious to see what it looks like in another 20 games.

As for Towns I wonder what kind of "gravity" he attracts. Is he getting so much attention from teams its more difficult to get him involved than it seems at first glance? I'm genuinely curious about that when it comes to "gravity" that especially top level 3 point shooters especially Curry have which can have a significant effect.

Just a theory on the KAT not getting touches when he is hot (its going to be way out there). Is there something to the affect that Kat is going to play about 40 minutes a night with Cole and Gorgui out. So if we keep feeding him every possession he is going to get tired, and we need him fresh on the defensive end. We have so many offensive weapons and because of injuries we need Kat "fresh" because he is so important in so many aspects of the game for the wolves.

Once again way out there theory.

Not necessarily so far out there, Kek. That could easily explain what happened last night. But I've noticed this pattern before Gorgui went down. We'll see how things progress. Part of it may be Thibs wanting to spread the scoring more early in the season to get everyone sharp over the course of the long season.