Minnesota Sports Forum

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

TheSP wrote:With two more years after this at an $18M cap hit, good luck finding any takers! Deng was one of those guys this board wanted as I recall it, one that we should be happy got away!!

Deng and Horford were "my guys" at one point in terms of adding vets to our former group of kiddies. One for two I guess. You never know when someone might fall off a cliff. And may be Deng gets rejuvenated as a bench player on a good team. I can't believe he's actually as bad as he was last year with the Lakers.

With the price tag attached to Horford vs his actual value, I'd say you were 0 for 2.

We'll agree to disagree. He's been on an upper half defense every year after his rookie year, including some top 5 defenses. He anchors that team on both ends of the court, even though he isn't a high volume scorer. They were 7-7 last year when he didn't play, 46-22 when he did play. Great player.

We can agree to disagree. Great player - I don't see it. He's 31 years old and at times he looks like an old 31. He's torn both pectoral muscles in his career and he doesn't fill up the score sheet. I just don't see how he's the worth the money it took to sign him.

Wins are more important than stats. The guy just wins a bunch of games. He helped ATL get to the top spot in the conference and last year he helped Boston get there. It's not just a coincidence that he's been on multiple top teams. He's a solid player and it looks like he does a lot of stuff that doesn't show up on paper that just wins a bunch of games. He's overpaid if you are championship or bust. He's properly paid if you just look at how much winning in general he does for a team.

That's my point Khansy, he's a solid player not a great one.

I believe he's great. His stats actually ARE great when you look at the full picture, including the +/- stuff, which more than anything demonstrates his value over multiple seasons with different teams (he hasn't had a negative +/- while on the floor for 10 straight seasons and his team has done worse with him on the bench for 9 straight seasons. In other words, we have a decade of data that shows his presence on the floor leads to winning basketball and his presence on the bench leads to worse basketball).

Two-way bigs are really hard to come by and he's one of them.

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

TheSP wrote:With two more years after this at an $18M cap hit, good luck finding any takers! Deng was one of those guys this board wanted as I recall it, one that we should be happy got away!!

Deng and Horford were "my guys" at one point in terms of adding vets to our former group of kiddies. One for two I guess. You never know when someone might fall off a cliff. And may be Deng gets rejuvenated as a bench player on a good team. I can't believe he's actually as bad as he was last year with the Lakers.

With the price tag attached to Horford vs his actual value, I'd say you were 0 for 2.

We'll agree to disagree. He's been on an upper half defense every year after his rookie year, including some top 5 defenses. He anchors that team on both ends of the court, even though he isn't a high volume scorer. They were 7-7 last year when he didn't play, 46-22 when he did play. Great player.

We can agree to disagree. Great player - I don't see it. He's 31 years old and at times he looks like an old 31. He's torn both pectoral muscles in his career and he doesn't fill up the score sheet. I just don't see how he's the worth the money it took to sign him.

Wins are more important than stats. The guy just wins a bunch of games. He helped ATL get to the top spot in the conference and last year he helped Boston get there. It's not just a coincidence that he's been on multiple top teams. He's a solid player and it looks like he does a lot of stuff that doesn't show up on paper that just wins a bunch of games. He's overpaid if you are championship or bust. He's properly paid if you just look at how much winning in general he does for a team.

That's my point Khansy, he's a solid player not a great one.

I believe he's great. His stats actually ARE great when you look at the full picture, including the +/- stuff, which more than anything demonstrates his value over multiple seasons with different teams (he hasn't had a negative +/- while on the floor for 10 straight seasons and his team has done worse with him on the bench for 9 straight seasons. In other words, we have a decade of data that shows his presence on the floor leads to winning basketball and his presence on the bench leads to worse basketball).

Two-way bigs are really hard to come by and he's one of them.

I'm with Q on this one. For a vet min guy, he'd be a great pickup. Even though I wish he were could play more of the 2 and 3, which is where we need more depth, especially defensively, I'd be really happy if he gets bought out and the Thibs connection allows us to pick him up for the vet min.

EDIT: Wait! Whoops!! I thought you guys were still talking about Deng!

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

TheSP wrote:With two more years after this at an $18M cap hit, good luck finding any takers! Deng was one of those guys this board wanted as I recall it, one that we should be happy got away!!

Deng and Horford were "my guys" at one point in terms of adding vets to our former group of kiddies. One for two I guess. You never know when someone might fall off a cliff. And may be Deng gets rejuvenated as a bench player on a good team. I can't believe he's actually as bad as he was last year with the Lakers.

With the price tag attached to Horford vs his actual value, I'd say you were 0 for 2.

We'll agree to disagree. He's been on an upper half defense every year after his rookie year, including some top 5 defenses. He anchors that team on both ends of the court, even though he isn't a high volume scorer. They were 7-7 last year when he didn't play, 46-22 when he did play. Great player.

We can agree to disagree. Great player - I don't see it. He's 31 years old and at times he looks like an old 31. He's torn both pectoral muscles in his career and he doesn't fill up the score sheet. I just don't see how he's the worth the money it took to sign him.

Wins are more important than stats. The guy just wins a bunch of games. He helped ATL get to the top spot in the conference and last year he helped Boston get there. It's not just a coincidence that he's been on multiple top teams. He's a solid player and it looks like he does a lot of stuff that doesn't show up on paper that just wins a bunch of games. He's overpaid if you are championship or bust. He's properly paid if you just look at how much winning in general he does for a team.

That's my point Khansy, he's a solid player not a great one.

I believe he's great. His stats actually ARE great when you look at the full picture, including the +/- stuff, which more than anything demonstrates his value over multiple seasons with different teams (he hasn't had a negative +/- while on the floor for 10 straight seasons and his team has done worse with him on the bench for 9 straight seasons. In other words, we have a decade of data that shows his presence on the floor leads to winning basketball and his presence on the bench leads to worse basketball).

Two-way bigs are really hard to come by and he's one of them.

That's what is great about this board, you can have your beliefs and I can have mine.
And you can always find stats to support whatever side you're on.

FWIW Wolfson reported on his last podcast that the offer the Wolves made to Deng was 3 years 36 million and the 3rd year was only partially guaranteed.

The Dunc'd on guys said they talked to someone in the Miami organization and asked if they thought Deng could still play. They said they think so but they thought he is going to be most effective playing the 4 like they did for them and Deng hasn't been able to do that much with the Lakers.

monsterpile wrote:FWIW Wolfson reported on his last podcast that the offer the Wolves made to Deng was 3 years 36 million and the 3rd year was only partially guaranteed.

The Dunc'd on guys said they talked to someone in the Miami organization and asked if they thought Deng could still play. They said they think so but they thought he is going to be most effective playing the 4 like they did for them and Deng hasn't been able to do that much with the Lakers.

I'm so glad Deng turn Thibs down on that offer. $12 million a year for 3 years would have been a pretty big blunder. Thibs definitely loved the key guys he coached in Chicago. He traded for Butler and gave Gibson a 2-year, $28 million guaranteed deal this past summer. And we know, Thibs was trying to deal for Derrick Rose last Spring. He also pursued Noah, but I haven't seen any reports on what Thibs offered him. Now we learn that Thibs offered Deng a 3 year $36 million deal. The good news is that Thibs (or someone in the organization) has set some limits on what the organization will give up (players or money) to put the old band back together.

So far, Thibs appears to have made the right decisions on how far to go with each of these former Bulls. Noah and Deng were nonfactors with their respective teams last season and look like they have little if anything left in their tanks. Derrick Rose remains a pale shadow of his former self. Butler has yet to live up to the priced paid to get him and the expectations associated with his arrival, but I still think he will. I still don't like Gibson's contract, but I have to admit he's added a lot to the Wolves so far this season. I can live with overpaying a player who is productive and makes a significant positive difference. That's not the case with Noah or Deng last season. Deng at the vet minimum this season seems like a decent value, so I'd be fine with that outcome if Deng is bought out and Thibs can pull it off.

If I thought Noah had something left in his tank and would stay healthy, he would actually be the one other former Bull I'd like to add to our roster.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:FWIW Wolfson reported on his last podcast that the offer the Wolves made to Deng was 3 years 36 million and the 3rd year was only partially guaranteed.

The Dunc'd on guys said they talked to someone in the Miami organization and asked if they thought Deng could still play. They said they think so but they thought he is going to be most effective playing the 4 like they did for them and Deng hasn't been able to do that much with the Lakers.

I'm so glad Deng turn Thibs down on that offer. $12 million a year for 3 years would have been a pretty big blunder. Thibs definitely loved the key guys he coached in Chicago. He traded for Butler and gave Gibson a 2-year, $28 million guaranteed deal this past summer. And we know, Thibs was trying to deal for Derrick Rose last Spring. He also pursued Noah, but I haven't seen any reports on what Thibs offered him. Now we learn that Thibs offered Deng a 3 year $36 million deal. The good news is that Thibs (or someone in the organization) has set some limits on what the organization will give up (players or money) to put the old band back together.

So far, Thibs appears to have made the right decisions on how far to go with each of these former Bulls. Noah and Deng were nonfactors with their respective teams last season and look like they have little if anything left in their tanks. Derrick Rose remains a pale shadow of his former self. Butler has yet to live up to the priced paid to get him and the expectations associated with his arrival, but I still think he will. I still don't like Gibson's contract, but I have to admit he's added a lot to the Wolves so far this season. I can live with overpaying a player who is productive and makes a significant positive difference. That's not the case with Noah or Deng last season. Deng at the vet minimum this season seems like a decent value, so I'd be fine with that outcome if Deng is bought out and Thibs can pull it off.

If I thought Noah had something left in his tank and would stay healthy, he would actually be the one other former Bull I'd like to add to our roster.

I was one who really wanted Deng in last year's free agency, and was dismayed when he went elsewhere. I had watched him a lot in the playoffs that year, and was covetous of his excellent defense...felt like he was exactly the right guy to put in the starting lineup with our Big 3 prolific scorers. Then, I watched as he floundered terribly in LA, and wondered whether he had completely forgotten how to play basketball in a matter of months, or rather he had fallen into a dysfunctional situation that didn't fit his talents. I tend to think it is the latter.

So, based on this conclusion, I am not second guessing my disappointment in our not signing Deng last year. I use as a comparison the more expensive per year Thibs used on Gibson. While I agree that Gibson has exceeded my expectations, I still think we overpaid, and think Deng for $2 million less would have been a better option at PF. Now that there is a possibility that the Lakers may buy him out and he might be interested in rejoining Thibs at a minimum price tag, I would be in favor. Luol and Taj are the same age, and I have always preferred Deng's defense. They are both high quality guys that Thibs knows well, and I think Deng would be a terrific addition to the roster.

Now, if he is injured or totally lost his ability to play basketball in such a short time, my opinion would be invalid. I would take a chance on seeing if he still has something left in the tank,

IF...what Wolfson said is true about what they offered Deng I think Thibs and Layden deserve plenty of credit for their offer of what was a pretty reasonable number and a non-guarantee the 3rd year which obviously looked toward the future. Remember there was a ton of money handed out that year and 12 million is a solid number but guys were getting PAID. Right now we would be looking at being able to be off him afte this year if he really did fall off a cliff. Wolfson said from what he gathered he isn't sure who the Lakers were bidding against giving him that kind of money for 4 YEARS. Maybe that's the tax it took to get him to LA. :) I hope we are a good team/franchise that is able to develop and find some young talent so we aren't always grasping for the next buyout old guy ring chaser which is a lot of what the Cavs have been doing.