Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

Camden wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

Camden wrote:The expectation for this season was for the Wolves to make the play-in tournament. This group, especially with its youth, needs to make progressive goals and actually meet them. That's the first one and they're on pace to do exactly that.

They have an outside chance of exceeding expectations by claiming a top-six seed which would guarantee them a playoff spot. It's well within reach, but they may need some savvy additions at the deadline to give them the extra push.

In any event, talking about a championship with this group is silly, in my opinion. They haven't earned that yet and if they ever do the team will likely have more turnover before then. It could be an entirely different core by that time. Let's pump the brakes.

Sure, this season it's very unlikely, what are the Vegas odds? 200-1.

I'm saying as a long term goal we need to be thinking Championship. Not just hope to make the play in. We need to look bigger picture. Are we getting better and taking steps towards that ultimate goal? Then yes I would consider it a success. I think 10th seed and then losing would be a disappointment.

Make top 8, I wouldn't not be looking at making roster moves, but would rather be much more on board keeping DLO/KAT and ANT together.

I just think we as fans need to expect the team to get better, hold them accountable. Not just settle with mediocrity.

Sure, but shouldn't the team get to a level of success that's actually mediocre first? They've been less than that for most of my time as a fan. I'd love a double serving of mediocre if for no other reason than it shows some kind of growth. It's always baby steps with this franchise. Play-in tournament, then playoffs or maybe even a series win, and then we can discuss becoming a contender or more. I just think it's silly -- and I'm not aiming this at you entirely -- to be thinking of how this team wins a championship when they've only made the playoffs twice in the past almost 20 years. One step at a time, my friend, but hopefully we get to have those conversations in the somewhat near future.

So you want to wait three years to win a 1st round? Won't KAT and DLO be like 30 then? Heck on your schedule KAT will be retired before they make the Finals.

Look at Phoenix, it's not unrealistic to expect bigger jumps then mediocre, mediocre, win a playoff round.

Let's get this shit moving. I expect this organization to compete for a Championship. That is the goal. Not settle for "good",

When the Wolves add to their roster a first Ballot HOF and one of the best all around guys to ever play at his position I'll raise my current expectations for this team to a higher level than "good". This team has been ot terrible what like twice in 20years? I think hoping for this season for them to be good is pretty realistic for a progression to going to actually pursue a championship level roster. We have seen worthwhile guys want to make the jump to teams on the rise. That COULD be the Wolves.

Then we need more from KAT and Ant. Ant can become an elite player in the league, I'm satisfied with his progress but not thrilled. I still think he can do better. KAT as well, he can do more, be a better leader. We've seen games where he is stoic and a killer, then others where he waves his arms after a Non-call and cherry picks under the oppositions basket.

DLO has been I think far above my expectations other then his shooting percentages. He was jacking up a few too many shots early on in the year and it seems he has progressed from that ISO jack up style. Now he is playing pretty darn good. I've been pretty impressed with him, though my expectations were far lower too. On that front I'm happy.

Other guys have certainly been mostly impressive as well. Vando of course. We all have seen a great uptick from him. Powell as well, has been coming along.

Then we have the others who have not been bringing it up to the standards we need. Bease was in a shooting slump. Bolmero has been disappointing. Naz is still pretty weak on defense and he's not been great as we need. Jaden has been hit and miss, seen too much laziness at times with him. He needs to come to the party. Bev can't stay on the court, I still love the signing though. That's a concern.

We have I think two players playing above expectations consistently. Vando and DLO. We have Nowell, KAT, Bev and Ant who are meeting but not exceeding expectations. Then I think we need more from the rest wether it be shooting better, more consistently with playing hard or better defense.

WolvesFan21 wrote:

Camden wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

Camden wrote:The expectation for this season was for the Wolves to make the play-in tournament. This group, especially with its youth, needs to make progressive goals and actually meet them. That's the first one and they're on pace to do exactly that.

They have an outside chance of exceeding expectations by claiming a top-six seed which would guarantee them a playoff spot. It's well within reach, but they may need some savvy additions at the deadline to give them the extra push.

In any event, talking about a championship with this group is silly, in my opinion. They haven't earned that yet and if they ever do the team will likely have more turnover before then. It could be an entirely different core by that time. Let's pump the brakes.

Sure, this season it's very unlikely, what are the Vegas odds? 200-1.

I'm saying as a long term goal we need to be thinking Championship. Not just hope to make the play in. We need to look bigger picture. Are we getting better and taking steps towards that ultimate goal? Then yes I would consider it a success. I think 10th seed and then losing would be a disappointment.

Make top 8, I wouldn't not be looking at making roster moves, but would rather be much more on board keeping DLO/KAT and ANT together.

I just think we as fans need to expect the team to get better, hold them accountable. Not just settle with mediocrity.

Sure, but shouldn't the team get to a level of success that's actually mediocre first? They've been less than that for most of my time as a fan. I'd love a double serving of mediocre if for no other reason than it shows some kind of growth. It's always baby steps with this franchise. Play-in tournament, then playoffs or maybe even a series win, and then we can discuss becoming a contender or more. I just think it's silly -- and I'm not aiming this at you entirely -- to be thinking of how this team wins a championship when they've only made the playoffs twice in the past almost 20 years. One step at a time, my friend, but hopefully we get to have those conversations in the somewhat near future.

So you want to wait three years to win a 1st round? Won't KAT and DLO be like 30 then? Heck on your schedule KAT will be retired before they make the Finals.

Look at Phoenix, it's not unrealistic to expect bigger jumps then mediocre, mediocre, win a playoff round.

Let's get this shit moving. I expect this organization to compete for a Championship. That is the goal. Not settle for "good",

While I agree none of us want to remain stuck in neutral for the next three seasons, to Cam's point, let's at least achieve mediocrity THIS season. For this franchise, that is a major accomplishment.

By the way, when Dallas won their championship about a decade ago, their top four guys in minutes were Dirk (age 32), Kidd (age 37), Jason Terry (age 33), and Shawn Marion (age 32).

Last year, Milwaukee's top four guys in minutes were Middelton (29), Holiday (30), Giannis (26), and Lopez (32).

KAT, DLO, and Ant will be 26, 26, and 20 by the end of this season. There is plenty of time for this core to methodically grow into a contender.

Q-was-here wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

Camden wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

Camden wrote:The expectation for this season was for the Wolves to make the play-in tournament. This group, especially with its youth, needs to make progressive goals and actually meet them. That's the first one and they're on pace to do exactly that.

They have an outside chance of exceeding expectations by claiming a top-six seed which would guarantee them a playoff spot. It's well within reach, but they may need some savvy additions at the deadline to give them the extra push.

In any event, talking about a championship with this group is silly, in my opinion. They haven't earned that yet and if they ever do the team will likely have more turnover before then. It could be an entirely different core by that time. Let's pump the brakes.

Sure, this season it's very unlikely, what are the Vegas odds? 200-1.

I'm saying as a long term goal we need to be thinking Championship. Not just hope to make the play in. We need to look bigger picture. Are we getting better and taking steps towards that ultimate goal? Then yes I would consider it a success. I think 10th seed and then losing would be a disappointment.

Make top 8, I wouldn't not be looking at making roster moves, but would rather be much more on board keeping DLO/KAT and ANT together.

I just think we as fans need to expect the team to get better, hold them accountable. Not just settle with mediocrity.

Sure, but shouldn't the team get to a level of success that's actually mediocre first? They've been less than that for most of my time as a fan. I'd love a double serving of mediocre if for no other reason than it shows some kind of growth. It's always baby steps with this franchise. Play-in tournament, then playoffs or maybe even a series win, and then we can discuss becoming a contender or more. I just think it's silly -- and I'm not aiming this at you entirely -- to be thinking of how this team wins a championship when they've only made the playoffs twice in the past almost 20 years. One step at a time, my friend, but hopefully we get to have those conversations in the somewhat near future.

So you want to wait three years to win a 1st round? Won't KAT and DLO be like 30 then? Heck on your schedule KAT will be retired before they make the Finals.

Look at Phoenix, it's not unrealistic to expect bigger jumps then mediocre, mediocre, win a playoff round.

Let's get this shit moving. I expect this organization to compete for a Championship. That is the goal. Not settle for "good",

While I agree none of us want to remain stuck in neutral for the next three seasons, to Cam's point, let's at least achieve mediocrity THIS season. For this franchise, that is a major accomplishment.

By the way, when Dallas won their championship about a decade ago, their top four guys in minutes were Dirk (age 32), Kidd (age 37), Jason Terry (age 33), and Shawn Marion (age 32).

Last year, Milwaukee's top four guys in minutes were Middelton (29), Holiday (30), Giannis (26), and Lopez (32).

KAT, DLO, and Ant will be 26, 26, and 20 by the end of this season. There is plenty of time for this core to methodically grow into a contender.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing. I think if the team makes the top 8 (actual playoffs) I would call it a mild success. Now I wouldn't really be happy with a first round exit, but am realistic to know we can continue to make steps towards being a contender. Bing an actual contender is what is fun for me. Just being good enough to make the playoffs but little to no real chance to contend is not.

As a fan I just want to think we at some point will have a chance to be winners.

I think the new owners are going to come in with much higher expectations for the franchise. Accountability is going to be greater and finishing 8th isn't going to be looked at as a success. A-Rod is not going to be in it to be mediocre. That's not to say we won't have to pass through a mediocre period, but it isn't going to be acceptable and I think that's a good thing.

I mot finding myself able to shake that stupid quote from KAT yesterday- in fact, I'm getting more pissed off about it the more I think about it.

So, KAT has played for 4 coaches, and only one coached him to a winning record and a spot in the playoffs. And that is the one he thinks he had to forgive? Give me a break. Look, I never thought Thibs was the perfect coach and I didn't weep when he left, but KAT and the Wolves were successful under. him Does KAT think he needed to forgive Thibs because he brought in Butler, and Jimmy was mean to him and Wig? Thibs and Butler may have been hard on KAT, but still...they won basketball games. And that should be all that matters. This obviously tells us a lot about KAT, and whether winning is the most important thing to him.

I hope KAT provides some clarification in the coming days...

FNG wrote:I mot finding myself able to shake that stupid quote from KAT yesterday- in fact, I'm getting more pissed off about it the more I think about it.

So, KAT has played for 4 coaches, and only one coached him to a winning record and a spot in the playoffs. And that is the one he thinks he had to forgive? Give me a break. Look, I never thought Thibs was the perfect coach and I didn't weep when he left, but KAT and the Wolves were successful under. him Does KAT think he needed to forgive Thibs because he brought in Butler, and Jimmy was mean to him and Wig? Thibs and Butler may have been hard on KAT, but still...they won basketball games. And that should be all that matters. This obviously tells us a lot about KAT, and whether winning is the most important thing to him.

I hope KAT provides some clarification in the coming days...

They barely made the playoffs and got smoked. Not really "winning" or successful. That would be my only disagreement. Making the playoffs and getting spanked isn't something I would celebrate nor should he. The team was full of older players as well. The Taj, Rose, Butler, etc...

The team now is still one of the youngest in the league yet is showing more promise.

It was a disaster under Thibs, I'm not sure why lots of people can't see that. It was a divided locker room. Some were backing Thibs, some hated him. You just can't be really successful with a poisonous divide with the team. Not to mention Butler and KAT/Wiggins hated each other too. So how was that working?

I'm sure that Thibs also backed what ever Jimmy was doing or saying as well. Which could be a part of the beef and poison we were dealing with.

WARNING: PESSIMISM ALERT. OPTIMISTS READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!

I write this post fully expecting to be eviscerated...but I'm not a snowflake like KAT, so I can take it. And I won't feel that I have to forgive any of you...or Thibs for that matter!

I'm reading some of the posts in this thread about what might constitute a successful season, and I find myself more in agreement with WolvesFan21 than most of the other posters who I feel might be satisfied with mediocrity. We need to have higher expectations. I need much more to consider this season a success. While I'm rube enough to get excited about squeezing into the playoffs this season (which I think we certainly will) and I'll pull every string to get tickets to any home playoff game, HOW we are getting to the playoffs has to be considered when concluding on the long-term prospects for this Rosas-created roster. That is, if you tend to take the long view like I tend to do...long-term success over momentary gratification is my mantra. My fear is that there is an intangible about the leadership on this roster (and I admit KAT's behavior and comments are coloring my opinion) that will always lead to our performing at a level below what our individual talent would indicate. And making the playoffs will give Gupta the cover he needs to not make any significant changes to the roster. And I'm convinced we need changes.

Here's my concern. We all agree that injuries impacted our record last year...most of us think we were better than a 23-win team last season. Well, it's disingenuous to conclude differently in a season where we have been extraordinarily fortunate with respect to injuries. Not only have we been the third healthiest team in the league in terms of man games lost (only Charlotte and OkC have had fewer man games lost), we have also been incredibly fortunate with injuries to key players on our opponents in most of our games. I took a look at our 22 wins, and could only identify 5 games where the opponent wasn't either missing their best player or at least one or more key starters. The only wins where we beat a healthy team were 4 wins against dreadful OkC, the Kings and the Spurs (we're better than those three teams) and what I would call the one signature win of the season...the home win against a healthy Miami team that had us all feeling quite optimistic. We've managed to avoid LeBron, Steph, Kawhi, Zion, Murray, Brooks, George, Luka, Jaylen Brown, Draymond Green, and many other impactful players...wow, there are a few Hall of Famers in there that we were lucky to miss. And let's face it...this kind of luck won't last forever.

My solution? I don't frickin' know. Some here thing we need help on the wing, and some say we need more size up front. I don't disagree. But how do you bring in meaningful talent? 1)through cap space, which we don't have. 2) through trades, but almost nobody here wants to give up any of our Big Three, and frankly nobody except Mrs. Jester wants Jake Layman (even though he seems to appear in every trade we propose here). or 3) through the draft...but sneaking into the playoffs leaves us out of the lottery where true game-changing talent is hard to find. So that's why I'm perhaps the only one here still on the Simmons train, or why I would not be opposed to blowing things up and rebuilding...again. Our bizarre injury luck isn't going to continue, and I'm not prepared to accept a ceiling of first round exits.

So I'll continue to watch every game because I find this team entertaining, and maybe a win over the Nets tomorrow (missing their best player...what a surprise!) will improve my mood. But I'm tired of being disappointed by this franchise, and I don't want to accept mediocrity. I'm hoping Lore and ARod feel the same way and push Gupta to do some major reshuffling before the trade deadline.

Okay, fire away...

FNG wrote:WARNING: PESSIMISM ALERT. OPTIMISTS READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!

I write this post fully expecting to be eviscerated...but I'm not a snowflake like KAT, so I can take it. And I won't feel that I have to forgive any of you...or Thibs for that matter!

I'm reading some of the posts in this thread about what might constitute a successful season, and I find myself more in agreement with WolvesFan21 than most of the other posters who I feel might be satisfied with mediocrity. We need to have higher expectations. I need much more to consider this season a success. While I'm rube enough to get excited about squeezing into the playoffs this season (which I think we certainly will) and I'll pull every string to get tickets to any home playoff game, HOW we are getting to the playoffs has to be considered when concluding on the long-term prospects for this Rosas-created roster. That is, if you tend to take the long view like I tend to do...long-term success over momentary gratification is my mantra. My fear is that there is an intangible about the leadership on this roster (and I admit KAT's behavior and comments are coloring my opinion) that will always lead to our performing at a level below what our individual talent would indicate. And making the playoffs will give Gupta the cover he needs to not make any significant changes to the roster. And I'm convinced we need changes.

Here's my concern. We all agree that injuries impacted our record last year...most of us think we were better than a 23-win team last season. Well, it's disingenuous to conclude differently in a season where we have been extraordinarily fortunate with respect to injuries. Not only have we been the third healthiest team in the league in terms of man games lost (only Charlotte and OkC have had fewer man games lost), we have also been incredibly fortunate with injuries to key players on our opponents in most of our games. I took a look at our 22 wins, and could only identify 5 games where the opponent wasn't either missing their best player or at least one or more key starters. The only wins where we beat a healthy team were 4 wins against dreadful OkC, the Kings and the Spurs (we're better than those three teams) and what I would call the one signature win of the season...the home win against a healthy Miami team that had us all feeling quite optimistic. We've managed to avoid LeBron, Steph, Kawhi, Zion, Murray, Brooks, George, Luka, Jaylen Brown, Draymond Green, and many other impactful players...wow, there are a few Hall of Famers in there that we were lucky to miss. And let's face it...this kind of luck won't last forever.

My solution? I don't frickin' know. Some here thing we need help on the wing, and some say we need more size up front. I don't disagree. But how do you bring in meaningful talent? 1)through cap space, which we don't have. 2) through trades, but almost nobody here wants to give up any of our Big Three, and frankly nobody except Mrs. Jester wants Jake Layman (even though he seems to appear in every trade we propose here). or 3) through the draft...but sneaking into the playoffs leaves us out of the lottery where true game-changing talent is hard to find. So that's why I'm perhaps the only one here still on the Simmons train, or why I would not be opposed to blowing things up and rebuilding...again. Our bizarre injury luck isn't going to continue, and I'm not prepared to accept a ceiling of first round exits.

So I'll continue to watch every game because I find this team entertaining, and maybe a win over the Nets tomorrow (missing their best player...what a surprise!) will improve my mood. But I'm tired of being disappointed by this franchise, and I don't want to accept mediocrity. I'm hoping Lore and ARod feel the same way and push Gupta to do some major reshuffling before the trade deadline.

Okay, fire away...

I have high expectations for the team but not unrealistic. I think making the top 8 would still be a mild success. But like I said I wouldn't be thrilled with losing in the first round either. But it also would be progression too.

I agree we need to continue to see progress from the young guys. I'm certainly not now ready to blow it up. Our deficiencies are with lots of our cheaper bench players, some who are young and can and should get better. So I will remain patient. But still looking for improvement over the stretch of games till the end of the season.

I agree we should have high expectations, but remain patient if the team is making progress. Who knows maybe Bolmero and Jaden really take a step forward next year, maybe Nowell turns into a legit starter type or 18 PPG off the bench.

We still have upside in lots to many of our players so I'm optimistic yet still concerned if things don't improve for some of them.

FNG, While I'm sure there are a lot of changes Lore and ARod want to implement in terms of how the franchise is run, I'm pretty sure blowing the roster up and rebuilding isn't on top of their list right now. May be they'll be less patient ultimately than Taylor was, but what you are proposing is the opposite of that, which is panic.

WolvesFan21 wrote:DLO has been I think far above my expectations other then his shooting percentages. He was jacking up a few too many shots early on in the year and it seems he has progressed from that ISO jack up style. Now he is playing pretty darn good. I've been pretty impressed with him, though my expectations were far lower too. On that front I'm happy.

I'm not picking on you here, WolvesFan, but there are many NBA fans and pundits who frankly didn't know D'Angelo Russell's game very well before this season and they made that evident with the way they talked about him over the summer. I'd also expect that most of those same fans/pundits are quite pleased with the season he's had to this point even with some inconsistent shooting.

I came across https://twitter.com/andrewdbailey/status/1484904641787686912?s=21these numbers from Bleacher Report's Andy Bailey earlier today and decided to copy it over here.


[table]
[tr]
[th]Player[/th]
[th]NetRtg WITH D'Angelo Russell[/th]
[th]NetRtg WITHOUT D'Angelo Russell[/th]
[th]Difference[/th]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Malik Beasley[/td]
[td]2.2[/td]
[td]-6.8[/td]
[td]9.0[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Patrick Beverley[/td]
[td]19.7[/td]
[td]-6.3[/td]
[td]26.0[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Anthony Edwards[/td]
[td]12.8[/td]
[td]-3.5[/td]
[td]16.3[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Jaden McDaniels[/td]
[td]1.3[/td]
[td]-6.2[/td]
[td]7.5[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Jaylen Nowell[/td]
[td]2.0[/td]
[td]-4.6[/td]
[td]6.6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Josh Okogie[/td]
[td]7.8[/td]
[td]-7.0[/td]
[td]14.8[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Taurean Prince[/td]
[td]-0.4[/td]
[td]-10.7[/td]
[td]10.3[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Naz Reid[/td]
[td]-2.5[/td]
[td]-12.5[/td]
[td]10.0[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Karl-Anthony Towns[/td]
[td]12.8[/td]
[td]-7.1[/td]
[td]19.9[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Jarred Vanderbilt[/td]
[td]14.2[/td]
[td]-0.3[/td]
[td]14.5[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

The takeaway? D-Lo is getting his individual numbers, but he also makes the other 10 players in the possible rotation significantly better. It wouldn't be a reach to argue that he's Minnesota's most valuable player to this point despite not being the best player on the team. The potentially scary part? Those shooting numbers are starting to rise for him considerably... He's shooting 43.0 FG / 38.0 3P / 80.3 FT over his last 20 games with a .566 TS%.