Minnesota Sports Forum

The whole idea of "success" is flawed in the basketball process from the time kids are old enough to throw the ball over the rim. The kids all want to score, and view that as the primary (and often only) measure of success. This is now perpetuated in HS, college and the pros.

My son is now a junior in HS, and unless he is scoring a bunch, he views every game a failure (to some degree). Being our biggest player, he can have 12 rebounds, 4 blocks....but if he only scores 6-8 points....he views the game as a total failure. It's crazy considering the impact some of these kids can have defensively, but that is just not what is impressed upon these kids. It's really too bad.

I bring this up because it parallels guys like Ja. I actually love the player, but I think there are a lot of players that are less effective to the outcome of the game than their stats indicate. The stars of today are not the 2 way studs we had in the NBA in the past. Guys aren't paid max money to defend....they are paid to score and make killer dunks that make highlight reels. Not saying Ja isn't a positive impact to his team, because I think he is, but I would also state that in most cases, the 20 points they score are given back to the other team on defense.....making them more negligible than it appears at first glance.

Hicks123 wrote:The whole idea of "success" is flawed in the basketball process from the time kids are old enough to throw the ball over the rim. The kids all want to score, and view that as the primary (and often only) measure of success. This is now perpetuated in HS, college and the pros.

My son is now a junior in HS, and unless he is scoring a bunch, he views every game a failure (to some degree). Being our biggest player, he can have 12 rebounds, 4 blocks....but if he only scores 6-8 points....he views the game as a total failure. It's crazy considering the impact some of these kids can have defensively, but that is just not what is impressed upon these kids. It's really too bad.

I bring this up because it parallels guys like Ja. I actually love the player, but I think there are a lot of players that are less effective to the outcome of the game than their stats indicate. The stars of today are not the 2 way studs we had in the NBA in the past. Guys aren't paid max money to defend....they are paid to score and make killer dunks that make highlight reels. Not saying Ja isn't a positive impact to his team, because I think he is, but I would also state that in most cases, the 20 points they score are given back to the other team on defense.....making them more negligible than it appears at first glance.

No doubt Hicks. I love the Jarred Vanderbilt story because he came out of high school scouted as a highly skilled point forward that could potentially be the next Lamar Odom (or even, dare we say, Scottie Pippen).

He ultimately figured out that the only way he was going to earn significant minutes in the NBA was to make hustle, rebounding, and defense his calling card. And its worked.

I think he's even acknowledged this himself. I suppose that as a 17-year old junior or senior, he saw himself as potentially a future NBA star. But he realized that was not to be and re-branded himself as an elite role player.

As for Morant, he's may be headed down the same path as James Harden, Zach LaVine, and DLO were on early in their careers - all offense and no defense. But eventually it seems like guys can mature and turn themselves into "good enough" defenders to not tank an entire 5-man unit with their laziness and absent-mindedness.

I think Ja Morant is getting ripped needlessly in this thread.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I think Ja Morant is getting ripped needlessly in this thread.

Ja Morant made his triumphant return tonight against OKC and the Grizzlies.......lose!

And guess who didn't play? Tyus Jones.

This pesky trend continues Abe!

Q12543 wrote:

Hicks123 wrote:The whole idea of "success" is flawed in the basketball process from the time kids are old enough to throw the ball over the rim. The kids all want to score, and view that as the primary (and often only) measure of success. This is now perpetuated in HS, college and the pros.

My son is now a junior in HS, and unless he is scoring a bunch, he views every game a failure (to some degree). Being our biggest player, he can have 12 rebounds, 4 blocks....but if he only scores 6-8 points....he views the game as a total failure. It's crazy considering the impact some of these kids can have defensively, but that is just not what is impressed upon these kids. It's really too bad.

I bring this up because it parallels guys like Ja. I actually love the player, but I think there are a lot of players that are less effective to the outcome of the game than their stats indicate. The stars of today are not the 2 way studs we had in the NBA in the past. Guys aren't paid max money to defend....they are paid to score and make killer dunks that make highlight reels. Not saying Ja isn't a positive impact to his team, because I think he is, but I would also state that in most cases, the 20 points they score are given back to the other team on defense.....making them more negligible than it appears at first glance.

No doubt Hicks. I love the Jarred Vanderbilt story because he came out of high school scouted as a highly skilled point forward that could potentially be the next Lamar Odom (or even, dare we say, Scottie Pippen).

He ultimately figured out that the only way he was going to earn significant minutes in the NBA was to make hustle, rebounding, and defense his calling card. And its worked.

I think he's even acknowledged this himself. I suppose that as a 17-year old junior or senior, he saw himself as potentially a future NBA star. But he realized that was not to be and re-branded himself as an elite role player.

As for Morant, he's may be headed down the same path as James Harden, Zach LaVine, and DLO were on early in their careers - all offense and no defense. But eventually it seems like guys can mature and turn themselves into "good enough" defenders to not tank an entire 5-man unit with their laziness and absent-mindedness.

I, too, love what Jarred Vanderbilt is doing for the Wolves as a rebounding, defensive hustle player. But that's what he's always been. Check out the following draft review of Vanderbilt from draft.net. It talks about his Lamar Odom star potential, but it also acknowledges his questionable shooting and more so his injury propensity. Note also that the review highlights his motor and picks RHJ as Vanderbilt's best NBA comparison. As I watch Vanderbilt now, he looks like the player he was expected to be but still short of the player his talents suggested he could become. And I still see his potential be be more if he can stay healthy and continue to progress:

NBA Comparison: Rondae Hollis-Jefferson

Strengths: Is the most dominant rebounder in his draft class, pulling down 25% of all available rebounds during his brief career at Kentucky ... Averaged 18.5 rebounds per 40 minutes in college ... Handles the ball extremely well for a player his size (6-9, 218 pounds) ... Passes the ball very well, is able to thread the needle as well as make the easy pass ... Has very good court vision, sees all 9 other players at all times ... Plays with a lot of intensity and passion, motor is not an issue ... Is capable of impacting a game even without taking a shot ... Can defend multiple positions, is able to rotate quickly and can make long closeouts to take away jump shots ... Has a 7'1" wingspan and 6.34% body fat ... Vertical jump was measured at 39.5" at Kentucky's pro day (though many of the measurements seemed inflated) ... Possesses good strength and his upper body is NBA ready ...

Weaknesses: The biggest concern with with Vanderbilt is his inability to stay healthy. Struggled with foot injuries throughout his high school ... Has a history of ankle and leg injuries which limited him to only 14 games during his collegiate career ... Has been hesitant to play through any kind of pain, questions in regard to his toughness ... Shot mechanics are not broken, but need to be refined to improve his jumper ... Struggles to score from any of the three levels consistently ... Only shot 63% from the free throw line at Kentucky and 42.6% from the field ... Will occasionally try to force a pass into traffic ... Conditioning is an issue, although part of that is due to time missed due to injury ... Can play a little out of control early in games as he looks to find a rhythm. Legs are very thin, likely a factor in his leg injuries ... Struggled mightily as a scorer ...

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I think Ja Morant is getting ripped needlessly in this thread.

Ja Morant made his triumphant return tonight against OKC and the Grizzlies.......lose!

And guess who didn't play? Tyus Jones.

This pesky trend continues Abe!

Well, the Grizzlies lost the night before when Ja was still out. I agree that Morant is in the category of players you mentioned earlier who start as terrific offensive players and eventually become good enough on the defensive end to be net positives for their teams. Morant is an offensive stud and ultimately good enough defensively to be an elite player on a contending team. I'm generally surprised by how well Memphis is doing so far this season. I hope they have an extended losing streak because the Wolves are currently only three games behind them in the standings.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Interesting stat I heard about Memphis (Chris Vernon/The Ringer)...

With Morant, they were the league's worst three point defending team.
Without Morant, they've been the best.

How much of that is on one player?
Different scheme?
Luck/law of averages?

I think I agree with...um...the other Abe who suggested Morant was getting ripped needlessly in this thread ;-) . Using statistics to support a narrative is out of bounds!

All seriousness aside, Ja Morant is a remarkably talented young PG with a terrific future ahead of him. If a healthy, fully engaged Ja played 100 games of 1 on 1 to 10 points against Tyus Jones, I think he might win 99 of them. But still, he is only 22 and in his third year as a pro. Is it really that surprising that Memphis has performed better with 7-year veteran Tyus Jones at the point? It takes a while to learn the NBA game. Ja is the future for Memphis, so he is going to continue to start and get 35 minutes a game, even if Memphis has been much more successful this year with Tyus at the point. Smart NBA GMs take the long view over short-term goals.

I also thought it was weird that the Grizzly fans booed Ja last night and told him to "sit back out". Not cool.

This thread is embarrassing. Ja Morant is significantly better than Tyus Jones in an individual and team setting. The supporting cast in Memphis performed brilliantly in a way that was never sustainable while Morant was out. Kudos should be given to Jones for stepping up and keeping the ship afloat, but that's all there is to this.

Camden wrote:This thread is embarrassing. Ja Morant is significantly better than Tyus Jones in an individual and team setting. The supporting cast in Memphis performed brilliantly in a way that was never sustainable while Morant was out. Kudos should be given to Jones for stepping up and keeping the ship afloat, but that's all there is to this.

The facts haven't borne out that he's better for the team than Tyus. Certainly he's a better individual talent.

Q12543 wrote:

Camden wrote:This thread is embarrassing. Ja Morant is significantly better than Tyus Jones in an individual and team setting. The supporting cast in Memphis performed brilliantly in a way that was never sustainable while Morant was out. Kudos should be given to Jones for stepping up and keeping the ship afloat, but that's all there is to this.

The facts haven't borne out that he's better for the team than Tyus. Certainly he's a better individual talent.

Anyone who argues that Tyus Jones is a more talented player than Ja Morant either doesn't understand basketball or is a fool. But the only way you can conclude that Ja is significantly better than Tyus in a team setting is if you don't have access to any statistics for Memphis's first 32 games. I agree with Lip that we can only hope Memphis continues its mediocrity with Ja back in the lineup, because it would be helpful for our playoff chances. But my sense is that Taylor Jenkins will work with Ja to bring out the best of him in a team environment, and the Griz will thrive the rest of the season. We'll have to see though.