Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:Quote from Glen Taylor:

"I think I expect playoffs," said Taylor, who also owns the Star Tribune. "We're in a really tough division, but I think we really have a good team. By that I mean, what we have done is we aren't relying on four or five players. I just think the way that we have put this team together that the first unit or second unit should go in and be very competitive with the groups that they need to compete against."


The most telling part was this: "what we have done is we aren't relying on four or five players." That's a key feature of the Gersson Rosas/Ryan Saunders system - quantity. I'm not aware of any other NBA team in recent history, if ever, who won with depth. What everyone else seems to know is that it's actually your top five players, especially your top 3, that determine success in the NBA. Rosas has been pouring the Cool-Aide and Glen's been drinking it - which is what what always happens with each PBO he hires.

This morning's Strib names Jake Layman as the likely starter at PF, and Saunders' lineups in preseason support this. Can someone help me get comfortable with Layman starting over Juancho, because it just doesn't make sense to me. Here are reasons why I prefer Juancho.

1) Layman was considered a SF coming out of college, and to the best of my knowledge, isn't much bigger now. His 6'8" height is adequate for a PF, but his 6'9" wingspan and 209 pounds make him quite undersized. Juancho is a little taller and heavier, and his 7'0" wingspan is much better than Jake's.

2) Juancho is a far superior rebounder- 7.6 per 36 compared to Jake's 5, and 8.9 with the Wolves last year compared to Jake's 4.1. I have seen no evidence that Layman can be anywhere close to an average NBA PF rebounder.

3) Juancho is a far superior 3-point shooter- 36% for his career (42% with the Wolves) compared to Jake's career average of 31% (33% with the Wolves).

4) I can find no statistical evidence to differentiate the two defensively, but I give the nod to Juancho due to his superior length.

I'm not nearly as much of a Ryan Saunders detractor as others here, but I'm baffled as to why he would start an undersized Layman at PF when we have a clearly superior alternative. Can someone please sell me on why Layman should start ahead of Juancho, and please show your work.

lipoli390 wrote:Quote from Glen Taylor:

"I think I expect playoffs," said Taylor, who also owns the Star Tribune. "We're in a really tough division, but I think we really have a good team. By that I mean, what we have done is we aren't relying on four or five players. I just think the way that we have put this team together that the first unit or second unit should go in and be very competitive with the groups that they need to compete against."


The most telling part was this: "what we have done is we aren't relying on four or five players." That's a key feature of the Gersson Rosas/Ryan Saunders system - quantity. I'm not aware of any other NBA team in recent history, if ever, who won with depth. What everyone else seems to know is that it's actually your top five players, especially your top 3, that determine success in the NBA. Rosas has been pouring the Cool-Aide and Glen's been drinking it - which is what what always happens with each PBO he hires.

"I'm not aware of any other NBA team in recent history, if ever, who won with depth."

This is simply not true. Many good teams have depth.

It's also worth saying that the Wolves also have an all NBA center in Towns it's not like they are out there trying to play some solid dudes 48 minutes a game.

FNG wrote:This morning's Strib names Jake Layman as the likely starter at PF, and Saunders' lineups in preseason support this. Can someone help me get comfortable with Layman starting over Juancho, because it just doesn't make sense to me. Here are reasons why I prefer Juancho.

1) Layman was considered a SF coming out of college, and to the best of my knowledge, isn't much bigger now. His 6'8" height is adequate for a PF, but his 6'9" wingspan and 209 pounds make him quite undersized. Juancho is a little taller and heavier, and his 7'0" wingspan is much better than Jake's.

2) Juancho is a far superior rebounder- 7.6 per 36 compared to Jake's 5, and 8.9 with the Wolves last year compared to Jake's 4.1. I have seen no evidence that Layman can be anywhere close to an average NBA PF rebounder.

3) Juancho is a far superior 3-point shooter- 36% for his career (42% with the Wolves) compared to Jake's career average of 31% (33% with the Wolves).

4) I can find no statistical evidence to differentiate the two defensively, but I give the nod to Juancho due to his superior length.

I'm not nearly as much of a Ryan Saunders detractor as others here, but I'm baffled as to why he would start an undersized Layman at PF when we have a clearly superior alternative. Can someone please sell me on why Layman should start ahead of Juancho, and please show your work.

I think the main thing is Juancho is slow. Layman has spent most of his career in Vanterpool's system and has played well with KAT in limited minutes last season. The 4 has to bust their ass in Vanterpools scheme, to cover for the 5 dropping back. I assume this is where the preference for Layman comes from.

FNG wrote:This morning's Strib names Jake Layman as the likely starter at PF, and Saunders' lineups in preseason support this. Can someone help me get comfortable with Layman starting over Juancho, because it just doesn't make sense to me. Here are reasons why I prefer Juancho.

1) Layman was considered a SF coming out of college, and to the best of my knowledge, isn't much bigger now. His 6'8" height is adequate for a PF, but his 6'9" wingspan and 209 pounds make him quite undersized. Juancho is a little taller and heavier, and his 7'0" wingspan is much better than Jake's.

2) Juancho is a far superior rebounder- 7.6 per 36 compared to Jake's 5, and 8.9 with the Wolves last year compared to Jake's 4.1. I have seen no evidence that Layman can be anywhere close to an average NBA PF rebounder.

3) Juancho is a far superior 3-point shooter- 36% for his career (42% with the Wolves) compared to Jake's career average of 31% (33% with the Wolves).

4) I can find no statistical evidence to differentiate the two defensively, but I give the nod to Juancho due to his superior length.

I'm not nearly as much of a Ryan Saunders detractor as others here, but I'm baffled as to why he would start an undersized Layman at PF when we have a clearly superior alternative. Can someone please sell me on why Layman should start ahead of Juancho, and please show your work.

This is a joke right? Obviously layman isn't a 4, but in this 1-3-1 system, layman is 10 times better than hgomez. Hgomez is slow and just flat out bad.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Quote from Glen Taylor:

"I think I expect playoffs," said Taylor, who also owns the Star Tribune. "We're in a really tough division, but I think we really have a good team. By that I mean, what we have done is we aren't relying on four or five players. I just think the way that we have put this team together that the first unit or second unit should go in and be very competitive with the groups that they need to compete against."


The most telling part was this: "what we have done is we aren't relying on four or five players." That's a key feature of the Gersson Rosas/Ryan Saunders system - quantity. I'm not aware of any other NBA team in recent history, if ever, who won with depth. What everyone else seems to know is that it's actually your top five players, especially your top 3, that determine success in the NBA. Rosas has been pouring the Cool-Aide and Glen's been drinking it - which is what what always happens with each PBO he hires.

"I'm not aware of any other NBA team in recent history, if ever, who won with depth."

This is simply not true. Many good teams have depth.

It's also worth saying that the Wolves also have an all NBA center in Towns it's not like they are out there trying to play some solid dudes 48 minutes a game.

Yes, many good teams have depth. But that's not typically what makes them good. It's generally the top 5, especially the top 3. Glen's comment that "we aren't relying on four or five players" followed by his reference to the team's "competitive" second unit strikes me as silly. Depth is frosting on the cake. But you first have to have a cake. We've had KAT a long time and finished near the bottom. The one season we made the playoffs was was a function of our top 4 or 5, mainly our top two, not our second unit. As DLO has said, this team will go as far as KAT can carry the, I'd say as far as KAT, DLO, Ricky and Beasley can carry them. That's the cake Rosas has baked.

#1 ...I do like Apollo's hockey line theory with guards.

#2. Agree with FNG on PF. Juancho will be the starter soon if not Wednesday...he's been with the team the shortest time and looks like he could be a bit slow (for that matter our beloved Ricky looks a bit slow right now) but they are both pros and will get up to speed. We lack real rebounding on this team outside of a few very good rebounding guards and I fear Layman (who. I am a fan of) will be too great of a rebounding liability

#1 ...I do like Apollo's hockey line theory with guards.

#2. Agree with FNG on PF. Juancho will be the starter soon if not Wednesday...he's been with the team the shortest time and looks like he could be a bit slow (for that matter our beloved Ricky looks a bit slow right now) but they are both pros and will get up to speed. We lack real rebounding on this team outside of a few very good rebounding guards and I fear Layman (who. I am a fan of) will be too great of a rebounding liability

Blake griffin is looking at a monster opening game. We got rid of the 1 guy who can matchup with him and most above average 4's in RHJ and is betting on layman/juancho vs blake.

D-Mac wrote:

FNG wrote:This morning's Strib names Jake Layman as the likely starter at PF, and Saunders' lineups in preseason support this. Can someone help me get comfortable with Layman starting over Juancho, because it just doesn't make sense to me. Here are reasons why I prefer Juancho.

1) Layman was considered a SF coming out of college, and to the best of my knowledge, isn't much bigger now. His 6'8" height is adequate for a PF, but his 6'9" wingspan and 209 pounds make him quite undersized. Juancho is a little taller and heavier, and his 7'0" wingspan is much better than Jake's.

2) Juancho is a far superior rebounder- 7.6 per 36 compared to Jake's 5, and 8.9 with the Wolves last year compared to Jake's 4.1. I have seen no evidence that Layman can be anywhere close to an average NBA PF rebounder.

3) Juancho is a far superior 3-point shooter- 36% for his career (42% with the Wolves) compared to Jake's career average of 31% (33% with the Wolves).

4) I can find no statistical evidence to differentiate the two defensively, but I give the nod to Juancho due to his superior length.

I'm not nearly as much of a Ryan Saunders detractor as others here, but I'm baffled as to why he would start an undersized Layman at PF when we have a clearly superior alternative. Can someone please sell me on why Layman should start ahead of Juancho, and please show your work.

This is a joke right? Obviously layman isn't a 4, but in this 1-3-1 system, layman is 10 times better than hgomez. Hgomez is slow and just flat out bad.

Nope, no joke man. I did hear a couple good ones this week though.

Did you hear the one about the guy who thought a 209 lb guy who played SF in college and mostly in the pros could defend NBA PFs, who average 232 lbs?

Or this one. Did you hear the one about the guy who thought a 6'8" guy with an alligator-like 6'9" wingspan could defend NBA PF's who average over 7 feet in wingspan, just because he is quick?

Or how 'bout this one. Did you hear the one about the guy who thought an undersized PF with a career 31% 3-point average is a better choice to start than a bigger PF with a career average of 36% (and 42% with the Wolves) in a system that favors the 3-point shot, just because the undersized guy is the second coming of Usain Bolt?

Of perhaps my favorite. Did you hear about the guy who preferred the "PF" who has averaged 5 rebounds per 36- that's right FIVE (5)- to the better shooting option who has averaged 7.6?

Sorry man. I hear your argument that Juancho is "slow and just flat out bad" and doesn't fit the system, but I don't find it very well thought out or supported by data. I've shown how Juancho is much more of an actual PF in size, rebounds 50% better, and hits his threes at a much better percentage. And your rebuttal is that the player you don't prefer is "just flat out bad". This is a joke, right?

Look, I don't think his team is set at PF at all, and I would have preferred to see RHJ on Wednesday night. But I need a lot more valid data than you're providing before I join you and Ryan on the "Layman for starting PF" train.