Minnesota Sports Forum

I've found it interesting how many times Lavine has brought up the ball espcially in this game. There was at least a couple possessions Rubio actually passed him the ball and ran down the court. One was at the end of a period so that made sense. It reminds me of when Rubio was playing in Europe with Navarro and played off the ball because Navarro was a top scorer and handled the ball a lot. He played that way quite a bit on the Spanish National team. I'm not making an arguement about whether it's a good use of Rubio and all that but it's certainly a role he has played before in his professional career.

khans2k5 wrote:I think 2 things are happening when Thibs lets Wiggins run the show late stretches of the game. 1. Thibs knows he can't give the ball to Ricky because of his lack of scoring ability. 2. He's trying to develop Wiggins into a more complete player offensively who isn't just a spot up guy or a guy who only looks to score every time he touches the ball like Bazz. Putting him in charge of the offense now is going to pay dividends down the line when he develops the tools (handle, IQ, etc.) to do it very well. If you only let guys do things they are good at they aren't going to develop in other areas (think Cal forcing Towns in the post in college). It takes reps to learn how to do everything right. I just wish Thibs would let matchups play into this a little bit and let Zach do it when he has a better matchup against Harden than Wiggins against Ariza. They both need the reps, so let the matchups dictate who's turn it is IMO.

Good analysis, Kahn. I think you're probably I right about Thibs' reasoning. Personally I don't buy not giving the ball early to Ricky because of his shooting. The offense worked well all game with Ricky running it most of the time and it can work late in the game too, especially when we have a lead and need someone who can manage the clock and run an organized offense.

I get wanting to develop Wiggins' areas of weakness, but I have several concerns with what Thibs has done in close games like last night's. First, Wiggins' skills haven't matured yet (as if they ever will) to the point where he can play that role in a game, which means those are things he needs to continue to focus on exclusively in practice or perhaps at less crucial part of games. Second, we are long past the point where we can afford to do things that diminish the chances of this team winning games. The fans and, more importantly, playes are going to be demoralized and that's when young potential stars decide not to extend their contracts. Finally, as you suggested, if Thibs doesn't want Ricky running the show late in games, he should have Zach play that role as Zach did very effectively earlier in last night's game.

Your explanation of why Thibs did what he did is likely accurate. But I still find what he did bone-headed/bull-headed and inexcusable.

Jimmy Butler didn't start out the player he is today. Thibs helped him become that player and I'm fine with him trying to do it with Wiggins. It took Butler until his 4th season under Thibs to hit that 20 PPG/3 APG mark. I don't expect Wiggins to be that guy in year 1 under Thibs when it took Butler 4. I'm fine with the development route. We have to break bad habits and get them playing the right way and they are starting to show signs of it against some good teams of late. Winning isn't the most important thing right now because nobody important is in a contract year. Learning to play the right way is more important than a few extra wins for the long haul and I think we are already starting to see some dividends to that approach in the last few games defensively. I think we are going to be poised for a big run down the stretch and even if we come up short of the playoffs we will be better off moving forward having done things the right way rather than sacrifice for a couple extra wins.

As young as the Wolves are, they do have some decisions to make eventually.

For example, is Wiggins good enough to be a #1a type of player? Or, is he destined to be a Glen Robinson type for his career? Throwing him to the Wolves like he is now could be part of the "long game" as noted. (1) To help him realize he has those chops. (2) To help the team realize he doesn't and consider finding a haul for him from another team who thinks he does.

In any event, it's not helping with Wins/Losses. But one thing I think most of us overlooked with Thibodeau is that he has arguably one of the longest leashes in the NBA right now. And he's one of the most powerful. The Wolves could go 18 - 64 and he's still running the show next season.

khans2k5 wrote:Jimmy Butler didn't start out the player he is today. Thibs helped him become that player and I'm fine with him trying to do it with Wiggins. It took Butler until his 4th season under Thibs to hit that 20 PPG/3 APG mark. I don't expect Wiggins to be that guy in year 1 under Thibs when it took Butler 4. I'm fine with the development route. We have to break bad habits and get them playing the right way and they are starting to show signs of it against some good teams of late. Winning isn't the most important thing right now because nobody important is in a contract year. Learning to play the right way is more important than a few extra wins for the long haul and I think we are already starting to see some dividends to that approach in the last few games defensively. I think we are going to be poised for a big run down the stretch and even if we come up short of the playoffs we will be better off moving forward having done things the right way rather than sacrifice for a couple extra wins.

Co-signed.

Camden wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Jimmy Butler didn't start out the player he is today. Thibs helped him become that player and I'm fine with him trying to do it with Wiggins. It took Butler until his 4th season under Thibs to hit that 20 PPG/3 APG mark. I don't expect Wiggins to be that guy in year 1 under Thibs when it took Butler 4. I'm fine with the development route. We have to break bad habits and get them playing the right way and they are starting to show signs of it against some good teams of late. Winning isn't the most important thing right now because nobody important is in a contract year. Learning to play the right way is more important than a few extra wins for the long haul and I think we are already starting to see some dividends to that approach in the last few games defensively. I think we are going to be poised for a big run down the stretch and even if we come up short of the playoffs we will be better off moving forward having done things the right way rather than sacrifice for a couple extra wins.

Co-signed.

The one caveat is that (right or wrong) expectations come with being the #1 pick vs. a guy like Butler picked at #30. Even in Year 3 or 4.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Jimmy Butler didn't start out the player he is today. Thibs helped him become that player and I'm fine with him trying to do it with Wiggins. It took Butler until his 4th season under Thibs to hit that 20 PPG/3 APG mark. I don't expect Wiggins to be that guy in year 1 under Thibs when it took Butler 4. I'm fine with the development route. We have to break bad habits and get them playing the right way and they are starting to show signs of it against some good teams of late. Winning isn't the most important thing right now because nobody important is in a contract year. Learning to play the right way is more important than a few extra wins for the long haul and I think we are already starting to see some dividends to that approach in the last few games defensively. I think we are going to be poised for a big run down the stretch and even if we come up short of the playoffs we will be better off moving forward having done things the right way rather than sacrifice for a couple extra wins.

Co-signed.

The one caveat is that (right or wrong) expectations come with being the #1 pick vs. a guy like Butler picked at #30. Even in Year 3 or 4.

The other caveat is that Butler is an exception. Just because he became the player he did doesn't mean Wiggins will. DeRozan is another "hey, that could be Wiggins someday" guy that flat-lined for a few years and then suddenly something clicked last year - his 6th! - and he became something more than an inefficient volume scorer.

Then you have guys like Rudy Gay, Monta Ellis, Antawn Jamison, etc.....guys that never quite broke out into real impact players.

We don't know which side of this coin Wiggins ends up on. But no one can say he hasn't been given every opportunity to learn, grow, and develop. Since his rookie year, he's been pretty much THE featured guy in our offense. Yet the progress is painfully slow.....on both sides of the ball.

rapsuperstar31 wrote:It might have been touched on in the game thread, but what happened to Lavine late in this one? I was watching it, but it seemed like we rarely looked for him, and I barely noticed if he was open or not. We need him to demand the ball every now and than, maybe run some off ball screens for him to get open like Reggie Miller and Ray Allen used to get.

He missed some crucial shots late that could have put the game beyond reach IMO. His 8 TOs didn't help either....

Yeah, that last play before OT was a curious one by Thibs. Why the hell was Dunn in for Bjelica. That made absolutely no sense whatsoever. And if there is one guy on the team absolutely made for taking the ball full court with limited time to create a shot, it's Zach LaVine. Inexplicable decision making by Thibs.

(again, "it takes a village" applies to our meltdowns, which seemingly everyone on the team likes to get in on, including the coach!).

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Jimmy Butler didn't start out the player he is today. Thibs helped him become that player and I'm fine with him trying to do it with Wiggins. It took Butler until his 4th season under Thibs to hit that 20 PPG/3 APG mark. I don't expect Wiggins to be that guy in year 1 under Thibs when it took Butler 4. I'm fine with the development route. We have to break bad habits and get them playing the right way and they are starting to show signs of it against some good teams of late. Winning isn't the most important thing right now because nobody important is in a contract year. Learning to play the right way is more important than a few extra wins for the long haul and I think we are already starting to see some dividends to that approach in the last few games defensively. I think we are going to be poised for a big run down the stretch and even if we come up short of the playoffs we will be better off moving forward having done things the right way rather than sacrifice for a couple extra wins.

Co-signed.

The one caveat is that (right or wrong) expectations come with being the #1 pick vs. a guy like Butler picked at #30. Even in Year 3 or 4.

Did Butler have a new HC every year of his career? Being a number 1 pick doesn't trump everything. Frankly that shows how misplaced people's expectations are to expect a 21 year old on his 3rd coach in 3 years to be a night in, night out all-star just because of where he was drafted. He's really good relative to most 21 year olds and he's had more difficult circumstances than most being having multiple head coaches, being the number 1 guy from day 1 and defending the opposing team's best player from day 1. We all know he isn't Lebron or KD so let's stop acting like he should be where they were at this age.