kekgeek1 wrote:I'm trying to not be that guy but the bulls have a better plus minus when lavine is off the court and it's not like he has a stud replacement. That is the 5th straight year that the team has been better when he is off the court.
Teams are out scoring them 10 pts per 100 possessions even zach is on the court and his most played lineup is literally the worst lineup in the NBA for lineups that qualify. Getting outscored by 24 pts per 100 possessions.
Don't get me wrong I love zach but he is turning out to be a Jamal Crawford on steroids
Take a closer look at who he's playing with. Watch one of his games also, still has plenty faults on defense but his offense game has matured outside of putting up ton of points efficiently.
It's not like he's going 1 on 5 throwing of terrible shots. He's handles and creating for other, driving to the hoop, getting fouled, scoring at the rim, on the break, and from the 3. He's a beast on offense.
I get how good he is but the bulls have been 2.1 pts better per 100 possessions offensively when zach is off the court. And 1 pts better per 100 possessions on defense when is off the court. 3.1 pts better per 100 possessions when he is off the court on this current bulls team.
kekgeek1 wrote:I'm trying to not be that guy but the bulls have a better plus minus when lavine is off the court and it's not like he has a stud replacement. That is the 5th straight year that the team has been better when he is off the court.
Teams are out scoring them 10 pts per 100 possessions even zach is on the court and his most played lineup is literally the worst lineup in the NBA for lineups that qualify. Getting outscored by 24 pts per 100 possessions.
Don't get me wrong I love zach but he is turning out to be a Jamal Crawford on steroids
Take a closer look at who he's playing with. Watch one of his games also, still has plenty faults on defense but his offense game has matured outside of putting up ton of points efficiently.
It's not like he's going 1 on 5 throwing of terrible shots. He's handles and creating for other, driving to the hoop, getting fouled, scoring at the rim, on the break, and from the 3. He's a beast on offense.
I get how good he is but the bulls have been 2.1 pts better per 100 possessions offensively when zach is off the court. And 1 pts better per 100 possessions on defense when is off the court. 3.1 pts better per 100 possessions when he is off the court on this current bulls team.
The dichotomy between his On/Off numbers and production is pretty crazy. The one area on offense he needs to clean up is the turnovers....averaging 4.3 per game. Those are killers. But man, his scoring efficiency and volume is at an elite level right now. If he can clean up the turnovers (which often leads to easy baskets going the other way), I can see the On/Off stuff starting to shift over time in his favor.
Keek, I get that, but the bulls have 3 starters out of the lineup at this time. He's playing with Cam Payne, Carter (rookie) and other who are basically end of the roster players. His playing the majority of his minutes with a rag tag lineup against other teams starters. I'd say that's a big reason for those numbers. I've never been a big fan of on/off numbers. But fair points I guess.
Duke13 wrote:Keek, I get that, but the bulls have 3 starters out of the lineup at this time. He's playing with Cam Payne, Carter (rookie) and other who are basically end of the roster players. His playing the majority of his minutes with a rag tag lineup against other teams starters. I'd say that's a big reason for those numbers. I've never been a big fan of on/off numbers. But fair points I guess.
I also don't want to come off that I think zach sucks. Because I love zach and would take him over Wiggins. But just in general it worries me how bad his on/off numbers have been over the years and it's not like he has had good replacements.
Contrast that to another but you like in Richardson. The heat have been God awful when Richardson hasn't played
Duke13 wrote:Keek, I get that, but the bulls have 3 starters out of the lineup at this time. He's playing with Cam Payne, Carter (rookie) and other who are basically end of the roster players. His playing the majority of his minutes with a rag tag lineup against other teams starters. I'd say that's a big reason for those numbers. I've never been a big fan of on/off numbers. But fair points I guess.
Doesn't that go the other way also that he's only putting up major stats because he has no help? On a good team is he a top 2 option? He could be, but right now he's just putting up stats on a garbage team. I don't really see how there's a strong argument either way with him. Until he stops being a big stats on bad teams guy you can't really say he's gonna be that good in the grander scheme of being a basketball player who impacts the W-L column.
Agree, we'll never know I guess until he's put in position to do so and able to play with competent players who know how to playing winning, team basketball. I've watched a handle full of games this year and the eye test tell me his offensive skills set is able to do so. He attempting to play team basketball, his PnR game has improved greatly. He has the ability to be a primary ball handler for stretches, can grab and go and lead a break effectively, and his jump shot, i.e. ability to elevate and get a good look in almost any situation is basically unmatched around the league, with the exception of the obvious names.
I love his competitiveness and what appears to be a strong work ethic to work on his games. But I could be biased, as I've always been a Zach bobo.
Zach also put up those numbers playing against the Knicks who are putting out some random guys nobody has heard of and Zach got those numbers playing 49 minutes. Hoiberg should be fired for playing those guys 40 mins right?!?!?!!? =) I'd like to still have Lavine all things considered, BUT he is gone AND if you aren't worried about his defense...because its a legit concern. THe way the Bulls are set up this year we might not know what Zach is as a complete player for at least another season.
I like LaVine and will always cheer for him, and I'm happy that he is able to put up big scoring numbers on a bad team. But as others have said, his defensive deficiencies and high turnover rate (8 last night alone...yikes!) will always put him in the minus category. Fun guy to watch though.
longstrangetrip wrote:I like LaVine and will always cheer for him, and I'm happy that he is able to put up big scoring numbers on a bad team. But as others have said, his defensive deficiencies and high turnover rate (8 last night alone...yikes!) will always put him in the minus category. Fun guy to watch though.
Turnover rate is fixable and I wouldn't expect it to persist throughout his career. We'll have to see how his defensive stats improve over time. But as Q pointed out, his scoring volume and efficiency are elite right now. James Harden has always been a mediocre defender at best. Zach's still developing after his development was interrupted by an ACL. Moreover, he's never had a good team around him.
