Minnesota Sports Forum

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:I've been quiet all year about this, but it's time to make a statement. I'm constantly reading articles and listening to the NBA network. The summation of all the things I've heard or read tells me the Warriors wouldn't trade Wiggins back for DLO even up. And now they are going to take that #7 pick and probably package it with Wiseman and #14 and land a star veteran to make them a contender next year. Like it or not, they were very happy with Wiggins last year and see him as a very good 2-way player in the league. They really like his defense.

I think DLO is a more problematic fit for them when their starting backcourt are their two best players - Steph Curry and Klay Thompson. Wiggins can play the Harrison Barnes role of average-ish wing that will probably be just fine with really good guard play.

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:I'm a total DLO hater. I've hammered three points since we got him: 1) no defense, 2) no leadership, 3) no toughness. Couldn't agree more we have a low ceiling with him. The worst part is those flaws are all echoed in KAT to some extent (more on that later).

I also hated Wiggins' contract. I was never really on board with Wiggins going back to when I broke down his summer league highlights with the Cavs and I noticed he never once dribbled the ball more than two or three times. I took heat for my criticism of Wiggins over the years (mostly his slow decision-making), and I've been wrong about plenty of things, but I said at the time we signed that extension that it was a huge mistake.

That trade was ultimately about dumping one highly overpaid player for another one who our best player was (and is) publicly clamoring to play with. Frankly, I was surprised it only took one first rounder to ship that contract out, and that was almost certainly because DLO was already viewed as an overpay as soon as the Warriors signed him. Wiggins looked much better last year, but he was never cut out to be a #2 guy and still isn't, although he's paid like it, which hamstrings your ability to build a team.

Let's put the DLO-Wiggins thing to bed though. It's not even so much about Rosas. I think the deeper issue here is actually about KAT.

Bottom line, we have DLO now because KAT wants him here. I'd love to move him because I totally agree we have a low ceiling with those three problems: 1) no defense, 2) no leadership, 3) no toughness, all of which KAT shares to some degree as well. If you listen to KAT talk about DLO though, the writing's on the wall--move DLO and you may as well start looking for KAT trades. Truthfully speaking, trading both is probably the most safe way for us to get back to relevance one day (relatively) soon (like 3 or 4 years, as opposed to another 6-8-?), but it's so unfathomable to consider trading away the second-best player in your franchise's history. The problem is, KAT needs certain things around him--defense, leadership, toughness--and yet the guy he almost insists on playing with doesn't bring them. At the end of the day, that's the fundamental problem. Our best player isn't self-aware enough to know what his weaknesses are and humble enough to work on them or play with someone who will.

Jimmy's behavior was over the top, but KAT needs someone like him (or, in an alternate universe, a guy like CP3), and instead KAT's bonded with someone on the opposite end of the spectrum. I really hope I'm wrong and we can turn things around in the next year, but I suspect that's the key problem with this team in this era--I think our best player may not be self-aware or humble enough to want teammates that complement his weaknesses. It feels like he's chosen playing with his friend over holding himself accountable.

Hard to disagree with this. Realistically though, Rosas is going to want to roll with KAT and DLO for at least another season. Now if Edwards continues to blow up while the team continues to struggle, I could see a shift in mindset to build around Edwards and make HIM your franchise pillar. The interesting thing is that KAT and DLO are very complimentary to Edwards on the offensive side of the ball. It's defense and toughness, as you say, where building this team around that trio starts to break down.

Agree. And I'll admit DLO's a very good shooter, which is a premium these days generally and key to have around Ant offensively. DLO's trade value is also really low right now. So there are reasons why a random, realistic DLO trade these days is not a no-brainer, even if it wouldn't totally alienate KAT.

To me, KAT's too talented to trade unless you really have to. That's why it's frustrating that he's tight with DLO, given how their weaknesses compound each other. I heard a funny line on a podcast the other day. I think it was J. Kyle Mann and Jonathan Tjarks were talking with Bill Simmons and KOC about a DLO for Simmons deal. When Bill or KOC speculated about that framework happening, I think it was Mann who said "naaaahh, DLO is close to KAT," to which Tjarks responded, "yeah, but Simmons is closer to winning." If a DLO trade went down and the team improved this year--ideally making the playoffs--I would hope KAT's taste of success and the promise of more in the future would make up for losing his friend. This is partly why I wanted to get Cade so bad this offseason--because I think that would have helped turn our trajectory more clearly upward and therefore help us keep KAT. I know I'm criticizing KAT's priorities (and his defense, leadership, etc.), but he is a spectacular offensive player who, I think, still has the potential to be a very good defender. You have to hang on to a player like that until you're basically forced to trade them.

In terms of the possibility of moving on from DLO and KAT and focusing on Edwards, I don't think Edwards' development should make a KAT trade more likely unless he REALLY blows up while simultaneously being really bad on defense and KAT continues to underwhelm on D, therefore making it tougher to pair Ant with KAT. Hopefully, those guys end up being great together.

Related to that last point, I do think we need to have another thread on Edwards going into this season. I feel like we're all really excited about the potential he showed last year, particularly down the stretch. Oh man, he clearly has the ability to take over a game offensively with the ball in his hands! That is a key quality for a star and absolutely something you need in the playoffs (someday!). And personally, I love the guy's personality. But there are still a lot of question marks there about the defense, the efficiency, the quickness of the decision-making, and therefore what kind of a team you need him playing with, which I suspect you'd agree with, Q. Sometimes there feels like a bit of consensus on the board that Ant has already established himself so firmly that we don't discuss the question marks/weakness around him as much as guys like DLO. Honestly, it reminds me a bit of how much the consensus on the board was so pro-Wiggins so quickly. I'm NOT saying they are the same player--I definitely like Edwards more--but I think we need to balance our excitement about what he's shown and what his potential is with a bit more awareness of the question marks and areas for improvement that are still there.

I mostly agree with your DLO analysis, Drew...with two exceptions. With respect to your comment that he is a "very good shooter", I would modify that to "very prolific shooter". While he clearly has the ability to get a shot off, his TS% is below the league average...I can't call a guy who shoots below the league average a very good shooter. On the more positive side, as I attended more games in person toward the end of last season, my appreciation for DLO's leadership increased. Unlike KAT, I actually saw some leadership qualities in DLO that made me appreciate him a little more.

That said, I will be one of the happiest guys on this board tonight if Rosas somehow pulls a rabbit out of his hat and finds a greater fool willing to take DLO off our hands. Not likely to happen though, and I fear we have a 40 win ceiling until the end of DLO's contract.

FNG wrote:I mostly agree with your DLO analysis, Drew...with two exceptions. With respect to your comment that he is a "very good shooter", I would modify that to "very prolific shooter". While he clearly has the ability to get a shot off, his TS% is below the league average...I can't call a guy who shoots below the league average a very good shooter. On the more positive side, as I attended more games in person toward the end of last season, my appreciation for DLO's leadership increased. Unlike KAT, I actually saw some leadership qualities in DLO that made me appreciate him a little more.

That said, I will be one of the happiest guys on this board tonight if Rosas somehow pulls a rabbit out of his hat and finds a greater fool willing to take DLO off our hands. Not likely to happen though, and I fear we have a 40 win ceiling until the end of DLO's contract.

You know what? You're right about that second point. I actually just took a nap and woke up regretting the "no leadership" point regarding DLO and was just coming back to say I was wrong about that. It's more of a positive support/cheerleader kind of leadership. I did see him cheering guys on from the bench and running over to give high fives after plays more down the stretch. That is an important quality. I guess I was thinking of leadership in the classic sense of demonstrating a kind of stoic seriousness about the game--not whining about fouls, vocally taking responsibility for screwing up and then actually improving on it, getting in guys' ears with important (but calm) constructive criticism, giving positive encouragement in a personal way, demonstrating careful listening to the coach, and generally approaching the game with a high motor and a serious demeanor. It's a leadership of maturity. Dame, Chauncey, KG (though he could sometimes go too far with it, like MJ and Kobe), these are guys that come to mind with that kind of leadership. DLO's obviously a smart guy, and I appreciate that he did accept his role off the bench last year (that was mature), but other than that I don't think he's mature in that kind of way. But that's not the only kind of leadership. I do admit the celebrations and the support that he shows his teammates are also a kind of leadership. It's not exactly the kind of mature, stoic, serious sort of leadership I think we need. It feels a bit too much like an act sometimes. But DLO is not almost entirely a whiner (like Kevin Love) or aloof and distant (like Kyrie). (Side note, both DLO and KAT really do need to cut down on the whining to refs.) But I agree that DLO did seem to take on a role toward the end of the year as one of the team's biggest fans within the team. And that is a real positive. I was wrong not to acknowledge that.

As for the TS%, that might be low because he takes so many midrange shots or because he doesn't get to the line as much (despite his bullshit, Harden-like foul fishing). But by "very good shooter," what I mean is that when he takes a shot from 3--and he can pull up from deep--it just looks wet leaving his hands. The high arc he's able to put on those shots makes so many of those shots swishes that you basically expect most of those shots to go in when he takes them. I'd love to see the percentage of every player's jump shots that are swishes. I suspect his percentage would be high. He definitely helps stretch the floor for us, so that's what I mean by that. If he were more of a role player--and paid like one--and just focused more on off-ball shooting as his primary focus and only secondarily worked in shot creation, he'd be an asset despite his defensive weaknesses. I do think he started to accept a bit more of that role last year, which is a good sign. I guess that is also a kind of leadership and maturity.

So there are positives to DLO for sure. But on those other points--he's a horrific defender and shows zero toughness on the court--it's just a terrible match with KAT. And accepting a more appropriate role on the court doesn't give us more salary cap space.

We've been through the shooting debate with FNG before on DLO. If DLO's role is to be the 3rd option to KAT and Edwards, then he's going to find himself taking fewer of those really difficult mid-range and long-range shots with a hand in his face.

But the real key is the spacing he provides. No matter what his individual TS% is, no team in their right mind is going to sag far off of DLO. That opens up space for KAT and Edwards. So the real measure of DLO's ability to shoot is going to be reflected more in overall team offensive rating when he's on the floor with KAT and Edwards.

Q12543 wrote:We've been through the shooting debate with FNG before on DLO. If DLO's role is to be the 3rd option to KAT and Edwards, then he's going to find himself taking fewer of those really difficult mid-range and long-range shots with a hand in his face.

But the real key is the spacing he provides. No matter what his individual TS% is, no team in their right mind is going to sag far off of DLO. That opens up space for KAT and Edwards. So the real measure of DLO's ability to shoot is going to be reflected more in overall team offensive rating when he's on the floor with KAT and Edwards.

I haven't given up on DLO yet, the potential is there. Ice in the veins and when he is locked in he is actually a solid distributor making some tough dimes. If both Edwards and Jaden continue to improve there is no reason DLO can't be coached to be a 10 assist kind of guy, while hitting some game winning shots. We desperately need a quality shot blocker on this team, but I think we can be successful with DLO running the point.

rapsuperstar31 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:We've been through the shooting debate with FNG before on DLO. If DLO's role is to be the 3rd option to KAT and Edwards, then he's going to find himself taking fewer of those really difficult mid-range and long-range shots with a hand in his face.

But the real key is the spacing he provides. No matter what his individual TS% is, no team in their right mind is going to sag far off of DLO. That opens up space for KAT and Edwards. So the real measure of DLO's ability to shoot is going to be reflected more in overall team offensive rating when he's on the floor with KAT and Edwards.

I haven't given up on DLO yet, the potential is there. Ice in the veins and when he is locked in he is actually a solid distributor making some tough dimes. If both Edwards and Jaden continue to improve there is no reason DLO can't be coached to be a 10 assist kind of guy, while hitting some game winning shots. We desperately need a quality shot blocker on this team, but I think we can be successful with DLO running the point.

Not sure he'll have the ball in his hands enough to get 10 assists as I see a lot of action running through KAT and Edwards. My hope is that with those two taking on a larger share of the offense, that DLO becomes more efficient overall, both in terms of things like A:TO ratio and TS%. The bigger issue will be can these three along with Jaden and whoever starts at PF be good enough defensively to get some stops. That's the biggest question in my mind.

Q12543 wrote:

rapsuperstar31 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:We've been through the shooting debate with FNG before on DLO. If DLO's role is to be the 3rd option to KAT and Edwards, then he's going to find himself taking fewer of those really difficult mid-range and long-range shots with a hand in his face.

But the real key is the spacing he provides. No matter what his individual TS% is, no team in their right mind is going to sag far off of DLO. That opens up space for KAT and Edwards. So the real measure of DLO's ability to shoot is going to be reflected more in overall team offensive rating when he's on the floor with KAT and Edwards.

I haven't given up on DLO yet, the potential is there. Ice in the veins and when he is locked in he is actually a solid distributor making some tough dimes. If both Edwards and Jaden continue to improve there is no reason DLO can't be coached to be a 10 assist kind of guy, while hitting some game winning shots. We desperately need a quality shot blocker on this team, but I think we can be successful with DLO running the point.

Not sure he'll have the ball in his hands enough to get 10 assists as I see a lot of action running through KAT and Edwards. My hope is that with those two taking on a larger share of the offense, that DLO becomes more efficient overall, both in terms of things like A:TO ratio and TS%. The bigger issue will be can these three along with Jaden and whoever starts at PF be good enough defensively to get some stops. That's the biggest question in my mind.

I don't think there's much question there. Seems pretty clear the answer is no. Unless, that is, we somehow manage to make a trade to get a guy like prime Draymond into that lineup!

Everybody knows Rosas needs to do everything he can to fill that role, but this is also really on KAT, Ant, and DLO to step it up defensively. KAT really has absolutely no excuse. He's got all the physical tools and he actually WAS a good defender at Kentucky. Ant's obviously got the physical tools to be a good defender too. DLO has more physical limitations, but that doesn't excuse the lack of effort. Bottom line: those three need to step up defensively regardless of what Rosas can or can't pull off this summer.

Simmons along with Jaden would go a long ways toward solving our defensive issues.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Simmons along with Jaden would go a long ways toward solving our defensive issues.

Yeah, there are a lot of ways that he'd fit nicely with Ant and KAT. Doesn't shoot much? Should balance out Ant's shooting! And KAT is a better floor spacer than Embiid, so he can operate more like a center.

Still, it would also raise the same shooting issues he's had with Philly. At the beginning of the playoffs I was salivating about the idea of a DLO for Simmons framework, but by the end of their run, the seriousness of his liability as a non shooter was pretty obvious, even if it's been overblown. I think his FT% should move back towards his career average about 60% (which is terrible, but survivable). He'd definitely help with the defense and toughness problems we have.

But man, he needs to have a particular set of guys around him offensively to minimize his liability in the halfcourt. He needs guys who can run transition to keep up with him in the style of offense where he's best AND can all shoot to give him space AND can all pass fairly well to find him moving off the ball in the halfcourt AND there needs to be a legit second offensive initiator in the halfcourt so he's not handling the ball on the perimeter but rather getting the ball off cuts and finishes. Ideally, he's your PG in transition and your Clint Capela in the half court. If he's running the offense in the halfcourt, you're basically giving the opposing team a free safety because his guy will just sag off and help. For his sake, I hope he goes to a team where he can find what he needs and gets back the confidence to be more aggressive on the offensive end. Getting out of Philly will help too. Those fans are brutal.

McDaniels drawing serious interest according to several sources. I really hope we don't trade him. I see him as our future 3/4.

Miles Turner would be my top realistic trade target. Sixers are asking rediculous amounts for Simmons.