Minnesota Sports Forum

Q12543 wrote:

FNG wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

KG4Ever wrote:Rubio went off for 37 points, 10 assists, 8 threes (he hit them all in a row without a miss) against Thib's defense. Rubio's hitting over 40% on 3s for season now. Cavs are 7-4. Doesn't look like the Rubio for Prince trade has been very good unless that second rounder turns into the next Jokic. Still waiting for Prince to show up.

Ah, just saw this after I posted in the other thread. No doubt, Prince has been a massive disappointment. Of course, Rubio was a disappointment for us last season as well. Funny how guys come in and out 43 of our team and always seem to do better in whatever situation they were in before and after the Wolves. But while with the Wolves, they under-perform, especially when it comes to shooting 3's. It's freakin' amazing how guys struggle to shoot the ball if wearing a Wolves uniform. But put a different uniform on in a different city and suddenly they can see straight again. Even places like Cleveland! I mean, WTF!?

Lol, I always enjoy your "players make threes everywhere but here" narrative, Q, but this instance seems to be different. Unlike other situations where good shooters come to Minny and forget how to make threes (and you have chronicled many!), Ricky has never been a good shooter or consistent scorer. But something happened to him over the summer and he just decided to become a scorer...heck, at one point he was second to Luka in Olympic scoring! And it's carried over to the regular season as he's making 43% of his threes on almost 7 attempts a game.

A deeper look at his stats though show he hasn't been as effective as usual in other areas of his game though. While his 3-point shooting has been stellar, he's only making 39% of his 2-point attempts (five percentage points worse than his record with us last year), is only getting to the line 2.8 times per game (worst of his career),and is averaging 3.9 TOs per 36 (also worst of his career). As a result, his ORTg of 106 is slightly worse than his career average. It looks like he has decided to be an entirely different kind of player...essentially a 3&D PG who doesn't protect the ball as well as he used to. All that said, good for Ricky and good for Cleveland. Adding Rubio and Mobley has turned the Cavs into one of the most fun teams to watch this year.

I'll just note that Ricky shot 36% from 3 in Phoenix and averaged 13 PPG the year before he was moved to Minnesota again. Last year he shot 31% from 3 and averaged 9 PPG. So again....WTF!?

At the end of the day, Ricky will probably revert to his non-Minnesota mean. I certainly don't expect more 37-point outbursts from him. The bigger picture here is that a) it's a statistical fact that he shoots the 3 better with every other franchise he's played for, and b) his intangible positivity rubs off more on every other franchise he's played for.

A basic rule of thumb should be that whatever someone did well at his prior stints, apply about a 20% discount and that's the impact he will have on the Wolves! It will always be less effective!

Hmmm, I wonder if leadership and culture has anything to do with it.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:I'll bet anyone here that Taurean Prince makes more threes and shoots at a higher percentage from three this season than Ricky Rubio even after their poor/hot starts. These guys didn't just forget who they are. Prince will inevitably figure out his shooting woes and Rubio will regress to the scorer/shooter that he's always been. The key difference between the two, and the reason for the trade, is that Minnesota needed that shooting from the combo forward spot much more than they needed another mediocre point guard. Prince just has to make his shots. He hasn't yet. Frankly, not many Wolves have been either.

Sure. I don't think too many would dispute that since one of them shoots 36.7% for his career... and the other shoots 32.8% for his career.

But sorta like the Jimmy Butler destroyed season... after too long... the season is already lost.

And what else can Prince bring to the table? Maybe simply having him get back to 37% or even 40% on threes will show us just how much we need that shooting from the combo spot and all will be fine. But 8 games in... we're also seeing just how much we need secondary playmaking at the point.

Rubio was pretty bad last year. But he's not "another mediocre PG" in the mold of a Jordan McLaughlin if that was the intended comparison. Rubio has well established himself as a better player than that over time even with his embarrassingly bad shooting.

Prince has more in his offensive bag than just catch-and-shoot, but it's mainly built around that perimeter shot falling. He's plenty capable of attacking closeouts off the dribble or catch-and-rip to the basket. He also has solid floater game. Something about his touch/shot is just off right now. It could be the new ball. It could be that figuring out his role is effecting his play. Whatever the case may be, I don't expect it to last much longer and certainly not the whole season.

And yes, Rubio was a mediocre (at best) point guard last year. That's who Minnesota was trading. They weren't dealing the Utah Jazz or Phoenix Suns version of Rubio, nor would it have been logical to expect him to become that player for the Wolves since he's never been that in Minnesota. They cut ties and went for the better fit. I can't fault them for that.

Additionally, Jordan McLaughlin is a fine point guard. He plays well when his number's called. He's mediocre (at best) too. Rubio is better, but is he $16-million better? Not a chance. Not to mention, does Minnesota acquire Patrick Beverley if Rubio is still here? Absolutely not. So, yeah, I'll take Beverley and McLaughlin over Rubio at the point guard spot and Prince at the wing. Minnesota did well with those moves. The Rubio excitement should probably be moved to the overreaction thread.

Camden wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:I'll bet anyone here that Taurean Prince makes more threes and shoots at a higher percentage from three this season than Ricky Rubio even after their poor/hot starts. These guys didn't just forget who they are. Prince will inevitably figure out his shooting woes and Rubio will regress to the scorer/shooter that he's always been. The key difference between the two, and the reason for the trade, is that Minnesota needed that shooting from the combo forward spot much more than they needed another mediocre point guard. Prince just has to make his shots. He hasn't yet. Frankly, not many Wolves have been either.

Sure. I don't think too many would dispute that since one of them shoots 36.7% for his career... and the other shoots 32.8% for his career.

But sorta like the Jimmy Butler destroyed season... after too long... the season is already lost.

And what else can Prince bring to the table? Maybe simply having him get back to 37% or even 40% on threes will show us just how much we need that shooting from the combo spot and all will be fine. But 8 games in... we're also seeing just how much we need secondary playmaking at the point.

Rubio was pretty bad last year. But he's not "another mediocre PG" in the mold of a Jordan McLaughlin if that was the intended comparison. Rubio has well established himself as a better player than that over time even with his embarrassingly bad shooting.

Prince has more in his offensive bag than just catch-and-shoot, but it's mainly built around that perimeter shot falling. He's plenty capable of attacking closeouts off the dribble or catch-and-rip to the basket. He also has solid floater game. Something about his touch/shot is just off right now. It could be the new ball. It could be that figuring out his role is effecting his play. Whatever the case may be, I don't expect it to last much longer and certainly not the whole season.

And yes, Rubio was a mediocre (at best) point guard last year. That's who Minnesota was trading. They weren't dealing the Utah Jazz or Phoenix Suns version of Rubio, nor would it have been logical to expect him to become that player for the Wolves since he's never been that in Minnesota. They cut ties and went for the better fit. I can't fault them for that.

Additionally, Jordan McLaughlin is a fine point guard. He plays well when his number's called. He's mediocre (at best) too. Rubio is better, but is he $16-million better? Not a chance. Not to mention, does Minnesota acquire Patrick Beverley if Rubio is still here? Absolutely not. So, yeah, I'll take Beverley and McLaughlin over Rubio at the point guard spot and Prince at the wing. Minnesota did well with those moves. The Rubio excitement should probably be moved to the overreaction thread.

Ha. Easy now. I don't think anybody is "excited" about Ricky Rubio. That's basically an oxymoron.

He's a serviceable pro who knows how to play NBA basketball. And in some really odd twist of fate... apparently, he plays it better every place else than in Minnesota. That's basically the crux of any current Rubio discussion. We've all mentioned hundreds of times how poorly he played last season.

That being said, Rubio has mostly been a plus player, which is MUCH better than Jordan McLaughlin who is a 3rd team PG at best for every good to mediocre and even most bad teams.

Is Rubio better than Prince? Eye of the beholder I guess. But I would say "yes"... Rubio (at least every place but Minnesota) has been better than Prince. And through 8 games this season as well. Will it continue? Dunno.

And we'll see the long haul take with Beverley v Rubio. He does needed things for the Wolves. But what's the chance he's still here post-trade deadline at this point... and that would have been the same had Rubio was still here.

Which player would get more back in a trade at this point? Guess it depends on which Rubio was playing... MN Rubio or Everyplace else Rubio.

I'm not even suggesting trading Rubio away was a mistake. I'm just using his experience as a microcosm of the "Wolves Performance Discount" phenomena.