Defense matters

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Yeah, their inability to go get some more size up front or at least trade for another defensive-oriented PF to split time with Vando is disappointing to me.

Yeah, I can't think of a team that is going to be tinier than us. There's some evidence at least that Rosas isn't completely clueless about realizing how undersized this roster is if you believe some of the names he was rumored to be after. Collins, Nance, JaMychal Green, Gasol, Millsap...all would have helped with our size issue. So maybe Gersson is starting to get it a little...he just can't get it done.

Wolves are the 2nd smallest team in the NBA. Rockets are the only team smaller

Ok, so that validates the issue then.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I've always felt that GMs build great offenses and coaches build great defenses. The reason is that offensive skills are more unique to individual talent levels and somewhat less affected by scheme (Kevin Durant is going to score 24-28 PPG efficiently no matter what "system" he plays in. Same with Steph. Same with Harden. Same with KAT).

NBA defenses on the other hand have a lot more room for variability with any given set of fixed players based on the scheme, game plans, and attitude. This is why a guy like Thibs can walk into New York and turn them from the 23rd rated defense to 3rd best defense practically overnight. There are countless examples where something like this happened after a coaching change and relatively little player change.

Unfortunately, the Wolves are largely immune to coaching changes defensively since culture tends to trump everything else. And we have lacked a defensive-minded culture for all too long. No amount of great schemes and Thibs/Butler barking instructions was going to turn KAT and Wiggins into highly motivated team defenders. It's amazing how Wiggins goes to Golden State and suddenly he has a career year in defensive win shares and defensive box plus-minus.

[60WinTim]

I'm actually somewhat encouraged by our defensive potential. KAT has shown he can be a reasonable defender, but it's hard to stand out when you are not getting much help. Jaden has show a lot of promise as a 3 and D guy, and maybe even something more. Vando has flown under the radar a bit, but he had a mini-breakout season for us last year on the defensive end. I will not be surprised if both those guys are starters on day one this upcoming season, unless the stars align and we trade for or sign a legit big man.

I am sure we will sign or bring into camp another big man that might be intriguing. But I doubt anything happens until the Vando situation is resolved -- need to know how much money is left work with...

[Coolbreeze44]

I'm actually somewhat encouraged by our defensive potential. KAT has shown he can be a reasonable defender, but it's hard to stand out when you are not getting much help. Jaden has show a lot of promise as a 3 and D guy, and maybe even something more. Vando has flown under the radar a bit, but he had a mini-breakout season for us last year on the defensive end. I will not be surprised if both those guys are starters on day one this upcoming season, unless the stars align and we trade for or sign a legit big man.

I am sure we will sign or bring into camp another big man that might be intriguing. But I doubt anything happens until the Vando situation is resolved -- need to know how much money is left work with...

Hey Doug! How is the optimism level this year?

[Monster]

Yeah, their inability to go get some more size up front or at least trade for another defensive-oriented PF to split time with Vando is disappointing to me.

Yeah, I can't think of a team that is going to be tinier than us. There's some evidence at least that Rosas isn't completely clueless about realizing how undersized this roster is if you believe some of the names he was rumored to be after. Collins, Nance, JaMychal Green, Gasol, Millsap...all would have helped with our size issue. So maybe Gersson is starting to get it a little...he just can't get it done.

Wolves are the 2nd smallest team in the NBA. Rockets are the only team smaller

Ok, so that validates the issue then.

Where is the list for the smallest teams?

[Lipoli390]

I don't disagree with the statement here that both offense and defense are important. My main point is that the Wolves have built rosters that largely ignored defense the past 25 years (only 1 top ten defense in that period is astonishing), and they have been the least successful team in the NBA despite several seasons where they had a top 10 offense. What does that tell you?

Cam's point that you can win an NBA championship with a poor defense is true...the Nets were a terrible defensive team last year, and I would argue they would have been favored to win it all if they had been 100% healthy. But the Nets are also an anomaly, having 3 superb offensive players who are likely to one day be in the HOF. I would argue that it is near impossible to win a championship with a poor defense unless you have 3 HOFers scoring for you.

I read a study published in 2012 that the 10 previous champions all had top 10 defenses, and 8 of them were top 5. That says a lot, I think.

Unfortunately the current roster is not built for defensive excellence. There is one proven defender on the roster (Beverley) and the rest of our chance of being even mediocre is based on hope. Maybe Jaden is for real (I think he is). Maybe Ant can turn into a decent defender (the jury is still out). Maybe Dlo and Beas can become average defenders (I think most of us would say no chance). Maybe a roster that is almost certain to be the smallest (in terms of height and bulk) in the league can still compete defensively (again, doubtful). I'm confident that a healthy Wolves team will score some points...maybe even a top 10 offense. I just don't see much chance of outscoring our opponents in any more than 35 or so games this season.

Lip, I'm going to push back on your comment above that we elevate the importance of defense when we focus on it. We're Wolves fans, which means we celebrate offense and not defense, and that celebration exists in spades in this forum. If someone did a (very dull) experiment and counted the number of times we talk about offense rather than defense, I would submit it would be 10:1. The only two guys I can think of with a different ratio might be Jaden (marveling at how good he is for a young guy) and Dlo (either ripping him, or hopefully pointing out rays of hope). Take Naz for instance. I'm fairly confident the ratio of offensive to defensive comments about him might be more like 25:1. We talk a lot about his 3-point propensity and his above average ability to put the ball on the floor and get to the basket, but we very seldom talk about his defense...which is limited at best.

Some of us are basking in the afterglow of a Rosas trade that actually seemed to emphasize defense. But bringing in one aging player who will not start barring injury isn't an indication that Gersson has a new outlook. I look more toward the rest of the deals he has made, and think we will be defensively challenged as long as he remains POBO.

Fair points, FNG. Maybe we celebrate offense more than defense as Wolves fans. But what I was getting at is the tendency to emphasize defense as the only path to winning. It's part of the cliche that "defense wins championships." I thought Cam's stats were telling because they show that offense can win championships too. And obviously, it's the combo of the two. The Wolves were terrible statistically on both sides of the ball last season. So I expect them to improve on both ends. However, we all know the talent on the current roster is geared far more to the offensive side of the ball. I think our offense was stifled last season by a combination of injuries, youth and poor coaching by Ryan Saunders. If we're healthy this upcoming season, I expect us to be very good offensively with the maturation of our young guys and the coaching of Finch. I also expect our defensive to be better with the addition of Beverly, the maturation of McDaniels and Vanderbilt and the coaching of Finch. But I still expect us to be a bottom-15 defense because of who we have as the main guys on our roster. If this team can be a top 10 team on the offensive end, they can be pretty good. I still think we need to add a defensive big like Millsap or a potentially good defender with more size than Vanderbilt - someone like Hartenstein. Ideally, we'd add Myles Turner.

Gotcha, Lip. Actually an internet search on "is NBA offense or defense more important" turns up mixed results, with perhaps more opinions saying offense is more key. I think we all would love to see a Wolves team that could have a chance of being a top ten team at both ends of the court, but we all know a more reasonable goal is to at least get out of the bottom three on defense. That's why my Simmons excitement level was triggered today by Cam's post on which I concluded we still have an outside chance of trading for him. I commented in another thread that we instantly would become a top 10 defense with the Simmons/Beverly/Jaden triad and the somewhat improved defensive KAT we saw last year. But I would argue we would also be a top 10 offense. Heck, if Simmons could direct Philly to a 13th ranking on offense with their top two scorers (Embiid and Harris) missing 51 games, there's a good chance he could do even better with a healthy KAT and Ant next to him.

I share your wish that we could add some size in the form of a Hartenstein or Turner. And I understand your guarded optimism about the D improving this year because of Beverley, Finch and the maturation of our younger guys. But I could just as easily construct an argument that we may actually be worse this season defensively. Arguably our two worst defenders, Beasley and Dlo, only played 79 games between them last season...less than half the games. We all hope they are healthier this year because having them both on the court could really make this a potent offense. But a cynic might say that it will have an opposite impact on our already poor defense. Time will tell, I guess.

FNG - The cynical view you posit is not unwarranted. :).

[kekgeek]

Yeah, their inability to go get some more size up front or at least trade for another defensive-oriented PF to split time with Vando is disappointing to me.

Yeah, I can't think of a team that is going to be tinier than us. There's some evidence at least that Rosas isn't completely clueless about realizing how undersized this roster is if you believe some of the names he was rumored to be after. Collins, Nance, JaMychal Green, Gasol, Millsap...all would have helped with our size issue. So maybe Gersson is starting to get it a little...he just can't get it done.

Wolves are the 2nd smallest team in the NBA. Rockets are the only team smaller

Ok, so that validates the issue then.

Where is the list for the smallest teams?

Dane Moore tweeted yesterday the Wolves are the 2nd smallest team

[Lipoli390]

I've always felt that GMs build great offenses and coaches build great defenses. The reason is that offensive skills are more unique to individual talent levels and somewhat less affected by scheme (Kevin Durant is going to score 24-28 PPG efficiently no matter what "system" he plays in. Same with Steph. Same with Harden. Same with KAT).

NBA defenses on the other hand have a lot more room for variability with any given set of fixed players based on the scheme, game plans, and attitude. This is why a guy like Thibs can walk into New York and turn them from the 23rd rated defense to 3rd best defense practically overnight. There are countless examples where something like this happened after a coaching change and relatively little player change.

Unfortunately, the Wolves are largely immune to coaching changes defensively since culture tends to trump everything else. And we have lacked a defensive-minded culture for all too long. No amount of great schemes and Thibs/Butler barking instructions was going to turn KAT and Wiggins into highly motivated team defenders. It's amazing how Wiggins goes to Golden State and suddenly he has a career year in defensive win shares and defensive box plus-minus.

Q - I like your take on GMs building offenses and coaches building defenses. I've never looked at it that way, but your point is pretty compelling. I don't put as much stock in culture carrying over through different regimes. The issue with the Wolves through the Flip Saunders, Thibodeau and Rosas regimes has been a combination of coaching and personnel. Thibodeau had only two good defensive players on his roster - Butler and Gibson. FNG makes a good point about the Wolves becoming a good defensive team if they add Simmons without losing McDaniels. Assuming we also keep Vanderbilt, we'd have five good defenders in Simmons, McDaniels, Beverley, Okogie and Vanderbilt - one of them (Simmons) elite defensively and another (McDaniels) potentially elite. Add in a good head coach, Finch, instead of a deer in headlights head coach, Ryan Saunders, and I think FNG is probably right.

Note that KAT was significantly better defensively last season and Edwards certainly has the physical tools and basketball IQ to be a very good defender if commits to that end of the floor. McDaniels looks like the real deal defensively and he's have a season and full training camp under his belt as well as another 10 pounds of muscle on him. Then there is Vanderbilt reminds me of Rodman, one of the best defenders the League has had. And of course, we've added Beverley. So even without Simmons, I anticipate significant defensive improvement in this team next season. This is a chance for Finch to establish the defensive culture you've been talking about.

[Tactical unit]

Saying Rosas doesn't care about defense is just off. When did he ever make this statement?

2019 Drafted Culver over Hero, failed but he went for the potential 3D wing.
Drafted J. Nowell, was good value regardless of defense.
UDFA's J-Mac, Naz, K. Martin all value off the UDFA scrap heap regardless of defense.
2020 Drafted ANT over LaMelo, ANT appears to have the superior defensive upside.
Drafted McDaniels who appears to be a 3D Forward.
Drafted Bolmaro who has length and high motor that could lead to an above average defender.
UDFA Haggans known for defense.
2021 UDFA M. Wright known for defense.

Rosas draft's wouldn't indicate to me that he doesn't care about defense, in fact I would draw the opposite conclusion.

The only core asset when he got here was KAT and in order to keep him happy he went and got his buddy DLO even though that trade was a loss at least he kept what he viewed his most important asset happy and brought in an asset that can fill it up. Wiggins wasn't playing up to his potential in MN and lacked effort most nights. Regardless of defense he has to keep adding up assets and he's done a decent to above average job of that. It's not as simple as just go pick up great defenders and bam you have a great team. They have to be available, they have to be affordable, as free agents they have to want to come to MN and a losing franchise. With the hand he's been dealt Rosas has done pretty well in my opinion and has done nothing to indicate he doesn't care about defense, he's made comments about trying to add size. He's balancing many things with the main focus of building assets.

First and foremost he has to increase assets (Example: regardless of how good a defender RoCo was that trade increased assets) and he has to figure out how to build a core set of players so that he can make this successful. Then he needs to put a coach in place that maximizes talent and gets effort on both ends. Then he needs to tweak the roster to really maximize success.

He has his hand picked coach Finch and I tend to like what I saw from him. While we all would love a great defensive team like now. Just realize building up one of the worst franchises takes time and requires hitting on draft picks and building up assets over years to really see the desired changes.

[Monster]

Yeah, their inability to go get some more size up front or at least trade for another defensive-oriented PF to split time with Vando is disappointing to me.

Yeah, I can't think of a team that is going to be tinier than us. There's some evidence at least that Rosas isn't completely clueless about realizing how undersized this roster is if you believe some of the names he was rumored to be after. Collins, Nance, JaMychal Green, Gasol, Millsap...all would have helped with our size issue. So maybe Gersson is starting to get it a little...he just can't get it done.

Wolves are the 2nd smallest team in the NBA. Rockets are the only team smaller

Ok, so that validates the issue then.

Where is the list for the smallest teams?

Dane Moore tweeted yesterday the Wolves are the 2nd smallest team

Thanks I read his tweets. I'm pretty sure he didn't check with Lip on his database of standing reach. :)

Dane the thinks the Wolves will start Russell Beasley Ant but I actually don't think they will. I think it's going to be Russell Ant McDaniels Vanderbilt and Towns. Russell is a pretty big PG and McDaniels is now probably 6'10". The wolves are not a big team but if they play Prince as a backup SF that's not small either. The Wolves also have a couple shorter perimeter guys like a Beverly and Okogie (who has a 7' wingspan) that play a lot bigger (defensively) than their size. Whether the Wolves are undersized or small as Dane suggests (rightly so) might depend on who they play at PF especially if there are injuries. If they go smallball at PF then yes. If they are willing to play Knight minutes instead than not so much. I get the sense Finch isn't gonna live the small ball life but do it in smaller or moderate doses. I mean last year Finch was playing Juancho more than just every once in a while at the 3.

The other consideration is that teams that play small ball typically have a lot of 3 point shooters. The Wolves up to this point really didn't have those shooters and often had multiple guys on the floor that weren't reliable threats. This offseason the wolves 2 moves upgraded the shooting with Beverly and Prince. Ok maybe Prince is a certainty to be a meaningful upgrade but he has very strong catch and shoot numbers (also a good FT shooter) so I do feel good about him being better than say Juancho Layman or Culver, 2 of which aren't on the roster anymore. I'm not saying this team is suddenly a 3 point shooting team but it feels more like one than what we have had for a quite a while even if that's a pretty low bar.

Rebounding is a concern and Juancho did actually have a pretty solid rebounding rate but if some of those minutes go to a combo of Naz Vanderbilt and even Knight then that mitigates the problem and possibly even make it better if some of those guys get minutes instead of someone like a Layman who is not a good rebounder. Prince isn't a good rebounder but he seems to be an upgrade there over a Layman.

Ultimately I would like to see the Wolves add a big legit center sized dude to play some minutes but I also think if the Wolves get the most out of their roster (assuming Vanderbilt signs) then it may not be as big of a deal as it may seem. Time will tell and while obviously the players need to play well I think Finch and the coaching staff can have a big impact on the success for this team.