Wolves vs Warriors GDT

[AbeVigodaLive]

Im starting to really sour on Tyus Jones, of the 313 players in the NBA that have played 40+ games Tyus ranks 298th in TS%

Tyus is no offensive threat at all and is really killing the spacing when he plays with Okogie, got to be the worst shooting backcourt in NBA history. Kills the spacing for Towns

Such a disappointing development. Here is a guy that did the rare thing for Minnesota draft picks - he actually improved in each of his first three seasons! And remember he came in to the league very young, so there was reason to believe the improvement would continue. But nope. We can't have nice things as Wolves fans, so inexplicably he forgets how to make shots in a year that most young players really start to get into their comfort zone.

Once again Tyus has a spot in this league. I think he is a solid backup PG for all the little things he does well. But his lack of scoring/shooting hampers him from being a starting caliber PG.

Now how much is a backup PG worth? I'm not sure. I know people disagree with me but with KAT probably making All NBA that is 6 million less we can distribute to players like Tyus. That hurts us.

I don't think it's small sample sized that we are 23-19 with Teague and 9-20 without him

I'm not ready to concede that Tyus can't be a quality starting PG with the right mix of players around him. And I haven't totally given up on him as a shooter. I'm not sure how much stock we can put in the W/L comparison to Teague. I'd want to know how many games Teague and Tyus started with Covington in the lineup. I'd want to know who we played in those games and at what point in the season. For example, Teague was our starting PG when the Wolves were still in contention for the playoffs with everyone highly motivated. But I haven't gone back to compare so I don't know. And unlike Teague, who is in his prime, I still think Tyus has upside left as he is barely 23 and hasn't had consistent minutes. That said, I'd not banking on Tyus as a key to the Wolves future. I'm just not as prepared as some to dismiss him as a possible starting PG for the Wolves over the long haul. Just to be clear - if we get lucky and end up with the 2nd pick in the draft, I'd take Ja Morant in a heartbeat over Barrett or anyone else. And if Darius Garland falls to us at 12 or 13, I'd take him in a heartbeat. So I don't want to hitch the Wolves' wagon to Tyus at the point. I just see more potential there with Tyus than others see.

I'm a provincial rube... and dig pass-first undersized PGs... so I WANT Jones to succeed... a lot. BUT...

The Wolves need a lot of help. Basically, they have KAT and little else (differentiators) if we're being honest. And in that situation, do fans want a PG who needs the perfect complement of players to succeed... ala what we heard for years with Rubio?

Or, do we want a PG who can be the differentiator himself and carry everybody else along for the ride? I know those guys are hard to find... but we are living in a bit of a PG resurgence right now. There are a ton of good PGs around the league. Settling for "capable" would be disappointing.

I think it's especially important to have a guy who can create because we've been experiencing the limitations of having a 5 as your best player during crunch time. Whether it's the difficulties of getting him the ball... immediate double teams... predictability... etc... the Wolves will ALWAYS need a secondary star who can create for himself and others on the perimeter. Eliminating the PG from being that option (via Tyus) puts the Wolves further in a bind.

I'm definitely cool with Jones as a change-of-pace backup who doesn't hurt a team. But the NBA is built on dynamic players. And that's not Jones, nor will it ever be. He simply doesn't have the speed, skills, athleticism or size to match up well vs. the upper tier opposing starters.


[Note: Can you imagine how insanely good Tyus Jones would have been in college if he had stayed longer? Good for him for being a multi-millionaire and carving out his place in the L... but we lost what would have been a true gem of a college player with the way the two orgs work nowadays.]

[Monster]

I'm with the posts about Tyus disappointing but later int he game I thought to myself...Tyus is a true PG and he is playing with basically one elite offensive player in Towns and then a nice enough player like Saric and then Okogie and Wiggins who are pretty flawed. Tyus looked better playing with a bunch of guys that could score and he could do his thing. I'm not suggesting he is the answer or we should pay X amount to keep him but I do think he has more value than he has been showing lately...but it was pretty rough in this game for sure. If the right teams draft a PG I think we can end up with Tyus for a pretty reasonable sum. We can't overpay him.

As for the game...after the early flurry the outcome wasn't in question, but at least the Wolves didn't just get blown out of the building. Towns is kinda good and yeah he is kinda surrounded by scrubs or as Jim Pete said "backup singers". Some of the backup singers might be helpful but we need another player than can put real consistent pressure on the defense. This is one reason we need to bring back Rose on a reasonable deal and take what he can give us even if its just for 54 games a year or whatever. We need a guy that can get some buckets relatively efficiently for this team.

Excellent analysis, Monster.

I agree with you on Tyus. He doesn't fit well when only one elite offensive player. I'll add that the offensive system is poorly designed for him because it lacks the off-ball movement and spacing that would work best for a pure PG like Tyus. As I've been watching it has become clear that this is still basically, Thibs' offense. To be fair, Ryan hasn't had a lot of time to fundamentally change that system, although you can see that there is less dribbling and a somewhat faster pace to the offense.

I also agree that we should bring back Derrick Rose - assuming he agrees to a reasonable deal.

A word about Okogie. Yes, his shooting this season has been terrible and he's made a number of mistakes, especially on the defensive end. But his tremendous effort and intensity have remained consistent and his talent remains readily apparent. Note also that his shooting has been terrific these past two games. Last night he scored 19 points on 67% shooting from the field and 50% shooting from behind the arc. Against Houston he had 21 points on 57% shooting while hitting 43% of his three-point attempts. His shooting mechanics aren't broken. He just needs to continue shooting in the gym this offseason. In games, he needs to get his feet set. Meanwhile, he has an elite combination of length, athleticism and intensity. I'll add, as I've said before, that he has excellent instincts - a high basketball IQ - that often shows itself in his decisions with the ball. He's a very good passer.

So I'm not prepared to despair over this season. KAT is a superstar. Okogie is still an elite prospect. KBD has been pretty impressive as he's started to get some minutes recently. Saric has a lot to offer and he hasn't quite turned 25 yet. Derrick Rose still has a lot of game left and there's a good chance he'll re-sign here for a reasonable deal. We'll have our full MLE to spend on a free agent. And we should have a top 13 pick in the upcoming draft.

Lip I'm with you on Okogie as a guy that still has potential but I was speaking to what he is now. Yes he has had a couple nice couple of games that is great to see but he isn't exactly a guy that you set up or run plays for. Hopefully Okogie who had a run of looking like the rookie wall had hit him to a guy that's back to being more effective. I'd agree with Abe Okogie isn't an elite prospect but I would say he is a guy that could become a piece of the puzzle.

As for the offense...well the offense is based on running everything through Towns which is a good step IMO. Meanwhile the ball movement type of thing...well again the roster often does t have those guys on it. The lineups are in flux every couple games. Tolliver the last few games can't hit a 3 which if you are wanting to lose games is a good thing. I don't want to give Ryan a pass here but can you imagine Towns in this offense surrounded by even just Covington instead of one of our wings? Covington and a reasonable volume spot up 3 point shooting PG? That could be pretty lethal on that end. Best shooting wing that's been playing recently might be Cam Reynolds...ok maybe not really but serious it's not a shooting good group when that's what we are discussing. Maybe just some good shooters around Towns is only good enough to make us a pretty good playoff team but...that could be enough to make things interesting...as players may have interest in playing with Towns if he is basically carving up defenses. The potential for him to average 5 assists a game is there. Towns is arriving as an offensive player and his defense this year showed he doesn't completely suck on that end. Through all the shit this season there are some legit positives for this franchise. Now to sift through the chaff and get some more worthwhile talent on the roster and have someone at least competent running the organization. Not that high of a bar...lol

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

In my opinion RoCo is the only guy that truly fits on the squad with KAT. He does two things well that not a single other player on the team does both of - shoot the 3 and play defense.

Tyus - Has had his chance to shine with plenty of playing time and like so many other young Wolves before him, can't fucking shoot the ball consistently. So frustrating because this is a pattern that we see with prospect after prospect that comes through our "system".

Okogie - Same issue as Tyus. On a rookie deal so OK to keep, but not opposed to throwing him in a trade if it lands us something else better.

Wiggins - Get the hell rid of him ASAP this offseason.

KBD - Meh. Not impressed. But, he's on a rookie deal so might as well keep him around for now.

Rose - Fool's gold. Hurt too much and outside shot and defense very iffy. Yes, he's a "shot creator", but what good is that from a part-time player who doesn't do the other things well?

Cam Reynolds - Gee what a shock. A guy we signed because he can shoot actually can't shoot (at least not with us). 31% from the field and 32% from 3. Unbelievable. Expendable in my opinion.

Saric - We need a plus level defender at this spot even more than we need a shooter. I think we need to let him walk and go in a different direction here. We need a big man that can help protect the paint and do dirty work because KAT is going to be expending most of his energy on offense and needs to stay out of foul trouble.

Teague - Trade him as an expiring contract next season if he picks up his play option.

Gibson - UFA, let him go.

Tolliver - No one will be surprised to see that his shooting numbers are at a 3-year low....Once again, Player N puts on a T-Wolves uniform and you can pretty much discount their prior year's shooting numbers by around 20%.

Deng - I'd be interested in re-signing him at the vet min. He was a defensive difference maker when on the floor and can play the 3 or 4.

Dieng - Not much we can do here. Just wait out his contract.

So basically pencil in KAT and RoCo as your starting 5 and 3 for next season, hold onto guys on rookie deals unless they are part of a package to bring back something better, and let everyone else walk unless you can keep them at a very cheap price.

[Monster]

In my opinion RoCo is the only guy that truly fits on the squad with KAT. He does two things well that not a single other player on the team does both of - shoot the 3 and play defense.

Tyus - Has had his chance to shine with plenty of playing time and like so many other young Wolves before him, can't fucking shoot the ball consistently. So frustrating because this is a pattern that we see with prospect after prospect that comes through our "system".

Okogie - Same issue as Tyus. On a rookie deal so OK to keep, but not opposed to throwing him in a trade if it lands us something else better.

Wiggins - Get the hell rid of him ASAP this offseason.

KBD - Meh. Not impressed. But, he's on a rookie deal so might as well keep him around for now.

Rose - Fool's gold. Hurt too much and outside shot and defense very iffy. Yes, he's a "shot creator", but what good is that from a part-time player who doesn't do the other things well?

Cam Reynolds - Gee what a shock. A guy we signed because he can shoot actually can't shoot (at least not with us). 31% from the field and 32% from 3. Unbelievable. Expendable in my opinion.

Saric - We need a plus level defender at this spot even more than we need a shooter. I think we need to let him walk and go in a different direction here. We need a big man that can help protect the paint and do dirty work because KAT is going to be expending most of his energy on offense and needs to stay out of foul trouble.

Teague - Trade him as an expiring contract next season if he picks up his play option.

Gibson - UFA, let him go.

Tolliver - No one will be surprised to see that his shooting numbers are at a 3-year low....Once again, Player N puts on a T-Wolves uniform and you can pretty much discount their prior year's shooting numbers by around 20%.

Deng - I'd be interested in re-signing him at the vet min. He was a defensive difference maker when on the floor and can play the 3 or 4.

Dieng - Not much we can do here. Just wait out his contract.

So basically pencil in KAT and RoCo as your starting 5 and 3 for next season, hold onto guys on rookie deals unless they are part of a package to bring back something better, and let everyone else walk unless you can keep them at a very cheap price.

Q wants to get rid is Saric because he pokes holes in his theory any Wolves player that comes here shoots worse from 3. :) Just giving you a hard time Q but in all seriousness you have made your decision on Saric? So that means you would trade him right? He is still under contract for one more year for like 3 million and then whoever has him will have his RFA rights. That's pretty valuable.

[mjs34]

In my opinion RoCo is the only guy that truly fits on the squad with KAT. He does two things well that not a single other player on the team does both of - shoot the 3 and play defense.

Tyus - Has had his chance to shine with plenty of playing time and like so many other young Wolves before him, can't fucking shoot the ball consistently. So frustrating because this is a pattern that we see with prospect after prospect that comes through our "system".

Okogie - Same issue as Tyus. On a rookie deal so OK to keep, but not opposed to throwing him in a trade if it lands us something else better.

Wiggins - Get the hell rid of him ASAP this offseason.

KBD - Meh. Not impressed. But, he's on a rookie deal so might as well keep him around for now.

Rose - Fool's gold. Hurt too much and outside shot and defense very iffy. Yes, he's a "shot creator", but what good is that from a part-time player who doesn't do the other things well?

Cam Reynolds - Gee what a shock. A guy we signed because he can shoot actually can't shoot (at least not with us). 31% from the field and 32% from 3. Unbelievable. Expendable in my opinion.

Saric - We need a plus level defender at this spot even more than we need a shooter. I think we need to let him walk and go in a different direction here. We need a big man that can help protect the paint and do dirty work because KAT is going to be expending most of his energy on offense and needs to stay out of foul trouble.

Teague - Trade him as an expiring contract next season if he picks up his play option.

Gibson - UFA, let him go.

Tolliver - No one will be surprised to see that his shooting numbers are at a 3-year low....Once again, Player N puts on a T-Wolves uniform and you can pretty much discount their prior year's shooting numbers by around 20%.

Deng - I'd be interested in re-signing him at the vet min. He was a defensive difference maker when on the floor and can play the 3 or 4.

Dieng - Not much we can do here. Just wait out his contract.

So basically pencil in KAT and RoCo as your starting 5 and 3 for next season, hold onto guys on rookie deals unless they are part of a package to bring back something better, and let everyone else walk unless you can keep them at a very cheap price.

Q wants to get rid is Saric because he pokes holes in his theory any Wolves player that comes here shoots worse from 3. :) Just giving you a hard time Q but in all seriousness you have made your decision on Saric? So that means you would trade him right? He is still under contract for one more year for like 3 million and then whoever has him will have his RFA rights. That's pretty valuable.

I agree with the majority of Q's list, but I would try and bring back Gibson as a backup. I think we need a 4 like a Montrez Harrell type to play next to KAT, or a larger Center type similar to Adams from OKC.

With Roco's limited ball handling ability and Wiggins lack of heart, I think our PG needs to be a scorer like Kemba, or Lilliard. I would offer Tyus up to 4 mil as a backup.

I don't see any elitism in Okogie. I do think he was a solid draft pick and can be a starter in this league with a little more refinement in his offensive game. He is an aggressive player, which is the number one attribute the wolves should be looking for in the draft.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Yes, with Saric I'd shop him this offseason as we look to bring in people that are a better fit.

KAT is in his 4th year and simply isn't good enough to be elite offensively and great defensively. He needs another big, mobile body next to him that can defend. Saric isn't that guy. Hell, Taj isn't even that guy. I'm not sure where to even find that guy, but we need to keep trying things until we hit on something and then move on once it's clear it won't work. We have a pretty limited horizon (may be 3 more seasons tops?) before KAT demands a trade if we can't find the right supporting cast.

[Monster]

In my opinion RoCo is the only guy that truly fits on the squad with KAT. He does two things well that not a single other player on the team does both of - shoot the 3 and play defense.

Tyus - Has had his chance to shine with plenty of playing time and like so many other young Wolves before him, can't fucking shoot the ball consistently. So frustrating because this is a pattern that we see with prospect after prospect that comes through our "system".

Okogie - Same issue as Tyus. On a rookie deal so OK to keep, but not opposed to throwing him in a trade if it lands us something else better.

Wiggins - Get the hell rid of him ASAP this offseason.

KBD - Meh. Not impressed. But, he's on a rookie deal so might as well keep him around for now.

Rose - Fool's gold. Hurt too much and outside shot and defense very iffy. Yes, he's a "shot creator", but what good is that from a part-time player who doesn't do the other things well?

Cam Reynolds - Gee what a shock. A guy we signed because he can shoot actually can't shoot (at least not with us). 31% from the field and 32% from 3. Unbelievable. Expendable in my opinion.

Saric - We need a plus level defender at this spot even more than we need a shooter. I think we need to let him walk and go in a different direction here. We need a big man that can help protect the paint and do dirty work because KAT is going to be expending most of his energy on offense and needs to stay out of foul trouble.

Teague - Trade him as an expiring contract next season if he picks up his play option.

Gibson - UFA, let him go.

Tolliver - No one will be surprised to see that his shooting numbers are at a 3-year low....Once again, Player N puts on a T-Wolves uniform and you can pretty much discount their prior year's shooting numbers by around 20%.

Deng - I'd be interested in re-signing him at the vet min. He was a defensive difference maker when on the floor and can play the 3 or 4.

Dieng - Not much we can do here. Just wait out his contract.

So basically pencil in KAT and RoCo as your starting 5 and 3 for next season, hold onto guys on rookie deals unless they are part of a package to bring back something better, and let everyone else walk unless you can keep them at a very cheap price.

Q wants to get rid is Saric because he pokes holes in his theory any Wolves player that comes here shoots worse from 3. :) Just giving you a hard time Q but in all seriousness you have made your decision on Saric? So that means you would trade him right? He is still under contract for one more year for like 3 million and then whoever has him will have his RFA rights. That's pretty valuable.

I agree with the majority of Q's list, but I would try and bring back Gibson as a backup. I think we need a 4 like a Montrez Harrell type to play next to KAT, or a larger Center type similar to Adams from OKC.

With Roco's limited ball handling ability and Wiggins lack of heart, I think our PG needs to be a scorer like Kemba, or Lilliard. I would offer Tyus up to 4 mil as a backup.

I don't see any elitism in Okogie. I do think he was a solid draft pick and can be a starter in this league with a little more refinement in his offensive game. He is an aggressive player, which is the number one attribute the wolves should be looking for in the draft.

If there is legit hope for us as fans for Okogie being elite at something it's as a defender. He is raw and screws up sometimes but I do think there is legit hope for him to be very good on that end. IF...that were to happen what he would have to bring offensively would not have to be significant to be a really valuable player somewhat like Covington. I suspect it will be a bit of a roller coaster ride with Okogie the next few years but I think we have something useful there which is quite nice. He he actually develops his game he could be a guy that helps change the direction of the franchise even if he isn't a star or whatever.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I think we need to stop hanging on to guys who only work in the right situtions and start getting guys who just work regardless of situation. You don't build teams to make ancillary pieces work. You build them to support core pieces and if Tyus doesn't work now around the guys we have then he needs to go. Same for everyone else on the team.

[WildWolf2813]

Yes, with Saric I'd shop him this offseason as we look to bring in people that are a better fit.

KAT is in his 4th year and simply isn't good enough to be elite offensively and great defensively. He needs another big, mobile body next to him that can defend. Saric isn't that guy. Hell, Taj isn't even that guy. I'm not sure where to even find that guy, but we need to keep trying things until we hit on something and then move on once it's clear it won't work. We have a pretty limited horizon (may be 3 more seasons tops?) before KAT demands a trade if we can't find the right supporting cast.

i'm trying like hell if I'm management to see if Saric works as a sweetener in a Wiggins trade.

That said, I could see Saric elsewhere thriving, so while I'd still deal him, this organization has to look into why they're so awful at development. Even on the Iowa Wolves front, the player they laud is Hakim freakin Warrick who came into the league 15 years ago

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Depending on how the draft goes and who's available, I could support trading Saric then, but moving him to get Wiggins gone doesn't work for me.