Minnesota Sports Forum

thedoper wrote:I'm surprised by the lack of pessimism around this team generally here and in the various media sources local and national. I think the alternative needs to be looked at. If we didn't trade for Butler for instance we are a lottery team. Would that have made us happier or more optimistic? If we made different free agent signings we would have been at or near the same outcome. This team no matter who was our coach or GM is was going to be linked to the long term development of Towns and Wiggins. So are we so much less optimistic because they grossly under performed relative to their potential? Any GM or coach would have had a huge task to bring what we had at this point last year to where we are at right now. We have way more assets, options, and ways to build this team. And yes I believe Towns and Wiggins can continue to improve and develop. I am super excited.

I may be alone, but I still would prefer a lineup of:

Rubio/Tyus
LaVine/Dunn
Wiggins
Bjelly
KAT/Dieng

And whoever we could have added with 20+ mil and the #7 pick.

We still would have been in that 6-10 playoff push, but kept a lot more area to grow. Color me still disappointed.

kekgeek1 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

papalrep wrote:Kekgeek -The wolves need to hit on draft picks to bring in young cheap talent.

You mean like Lavin and Markinen to go along with Kat and Wigs?

My problem is Thibs. Obsolete offense, shit defense, plays a favored few guys into the ground. NO ONE not Kat or Wiggens, has improved under Thibs. By the time Taylor pulls his head out of his ass, Butler may be gone, and Kat as well.

Tyus and Belly have improved while Thibs has been the coach. Whether he should get credit is another conversation but those guys have improved especially defensively. Beyond that Thibs developmental grade isn't very high. I've said this next year we need to see some more positive signs there and I think there are players on this roster who could be guys who take a step. Only time will tell.

Lavine is no longer cheap, he is a RFA this offseason and I have to imagine he is going to get a big pay day close to the max (I will eat my words if it is around 10mil a year). But it didn't matter if we traded for Butler or not, we were not going to have any cap space this offseason. And now we have a player in Butler that we know for sure is an All NBA type player. Instead of paying Lavine another guy who is a question mark like wiggins on how good they are/will become.

I believe that Kat and Wiggins have both improves along with Tyus and Belly like Monster said (also Gorgui and Bazz had their best year of their career under thibs last year, and Taj just had a career year), but is that improvement enough probably not, but how much does that fall on Thibs and how much does that fall on those 2 young players.

But if we didn't trade for Butler we would have a #7 pick, 20+ mil on starters/depth, and likely our pick this year to keep building + a lot more developing young talent than we currently have.

Watch Butler walk and KAT take the qualifying offer.

TheFuture wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

papalrep wrote:Kekgeek -The wolves need to hit on draft picks to bring in young cheap talent.

You mean like Lavin and Markinen to go along with Kat and Wigs?

My problem is Thibs. Obsolete offense, shit defense, plays a favored few guys into the ground. NO ONE not Kat or Wiggens, has improved under Thibs. By the time Taylor pulls his head out of his ass, Butler may be gone, and Kat as well.

Tyus and Belly have improved while Thibs has been the coach. Whether he should get credit is another conversation but those guys have improved especially defensively. Beyond that Thibs developmental grade isn't very high. I've said this next year we need to see some more positive signs there and I think there are players on this roster who could be guys who take a step. Only time will tell.

Lavine is no longer cheap, he is a RFA this offseason and I have to imagine he is going to get a big pay day close to the max (I will eat my words if it is around 10mil a year). But it didn't matter if we traded for Butler or not, we were not going to have any cap space this offseason. And now we have a player in Butler that we know for sure is an All NBA type player. Instead of paying Lavine another guy who is a question mark like wiggins on how good they are/will become.

I believe that Kat and Wiggins have both improves along with Tyus and Belly like Monster said (also Gorgui and Bazz had their best year of their career under thibs last year, and Taj just had a career year), but is that improvement enough probably not, but how much does that fall on Thibs and how much does that fall on those 2 young players.

But if we didn't trade for Butler we would have a #7 pick, 20+ mil on starters/depth, and likely our pick this year to keep building + a lot more developing young talent than we currently have.

Watch Butler walk and KAT take the qualifying offer.

Butler might walk. And 0% chance that Kat takes the qualifying offer. It would fuck him over on making the big bucks going forward.

Also Lavine was really bad this year, he shot worse than Wiggins and everyone kills Wiggins.

That team was a 31 win team. It's just as dangerous to have 3 young max guys that are really bad at defense and very inconsistent on offense outside of Kat. We would needed 2 guys to have massive improvements in Lavine and Wiggins.

TheFuture wrote:

thedoper wrote:I'm surprised by the lack of pessimism around this team generally here and in the various media sources local and national. I think the alternative needs to be looked at. If we didn't trade for Butler for instance we are a lottery team. Would that have made us happier or more optimistic? If we made different free agent signings we would have been at or near the same outcome. This team no matter who was our coach or GM is was going to be linked to the long term development of Towns and Wiggins. So are we so much less optimistic because they grossly under performed relative to their potential? Any GM or coach would have had a huge task to bring what we had at this point last year to where we are at right now. We have way more assets, options, and ways to build this team. And yes I believe Towns and Wiggins can continue to improve and develop. I am super excited.

I may be alone, but I still would prefer a lineup of:

Rubio/Tyus
LaVine/Dunn
Wiggins
Bjelly
KAT/Dieng

And whoever we could have added with 20+ mil and the #7 pick.

We still would have been in that 6-10 playoff push, but kept a lot more area to grow. Color me still disappointed.

I see your perspective and I don't even disagree with it. Some things to think about...

So you know that Rubio shot better percentages than Lavine this year right? Thinking that squad would have been a fringe playoff team seems overly optimistic. Lavine played only 24 games. Dunn only played 52. I think we would have been fortunate to be a Lakers type squad not terrible but a clear step lower than the playoffs. That may not have been a bad spot to be in but it still means we would be a fairly big step away from the playoffs and likely would be having to pay Lavine not really knowing what we really had on him and this is coming from a guy who LOVES Lavine and didn't want him to be traded.

Trading Rubio means we have another draft pick and a way to get a possible worthwhile piece going forward. Maybe we pick a dud but the potential is there to get a solid player or heck maybe we find a real gem of some sort. Jimmy Butler and Taj Gibson were certainly not lottery picks.

TheFuture wrote:

thedoper wrote:I'm surprised by the lack of pessimism around this team generally here and in the various media sources local and national. I think the alternative needs to be looked at. If we didn't trade for Butler for instance we are a lottery team. Would that have made us happier or more optimistic? If we made different free agent signings we would have been at or near the same outcome. This team no matter who was our coach or GM is was going to be linked to the long term development of Towns and Wiggins. So are we so much less optimistic because they grossly under performed relative to their potential? Any GM or coach would have had a huge task to bring what we had at this point last year to where we are at right now. We have way more assets, options, and ways to build this team. And yes I believe Towns and Wiggins can continue to improve and develop. I am super excited.

I may be alone, but I still would prefer a lineup of:

Rubio/Tyus
LaVine/Dunn
Wiggins
Bjelly
KAT/Dieng

And whoever we could have added with 20+ mil and the #7 pick.

We still would have been in that 6-10 playoff push, but kept a lot more area to grow. Color me still disappointed.

I can't see how that team comes even close to the playoffs in the west, but I can see how someone who just wanted the player development angle would want to keep the band together.

monsterpile wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

thedoper wrote:I'm surprised by the lack of pessimism around this team generally here and in the various media sources local and national. I think the alternative needs to be looked at. If we didn't trade for Butler for instance we are a lottery team. Would that have made us happier or more optimistic? If we made different free agent signings we would have been at or near the same outcome. This team no matter who was our coach or GM is was going to be linked to the long term development of Towns and Wiggins. So are we so much less optimistic because they grossly under performed relative to their potential? Any GM or coach would have had a huge task to bring what we had at this point last year to where we are at right now. We have way more assets, options, and ways to build this team. And yes I believe Towns and Wiggins can continue to improve and develop. I am super excited.

I may be alone, but I still would prefer a lineup of:

Rubio/Tyus
LaVine/Dunn
Wiggins
Bjelly
KAT/Dieng

And whoever we could have added with 20+ mil and the #7 pick.

We still would have been in that 6-10 playoff push, but kept a lot more area to grow. Color me still disappointed.

I see your perspective and I don't even disagree with it. Some things to think about...

So you know that Rubio shot better percentages than Lavine this year right? Thinking that squad would have been a fringe playoff team seems overly optimistic. Lavine played only 24 games. Dunn only played 52. I think we would have been fortunate to be a Lakers type squad not terrible but a clear step lower than the playoffs. That may not have been a bad spot to be in but it still means we would be a fairly big step away from the playoffs and likely would be having to pay Lavine not really knowing what we really had on him and this is coming from a guy who LOVES Lavine and didn't want him to be traded.

Trading Rubio means we have another draft pick and a way to get a possible worthwhile piece going forward. Maybe we pick a dud but the potential is there to get a solid player or heck maybe we find a real gem of some sort. Jimmy Butler and Taj Gibson were certainly not lottery picks.

Lavine also would be in those games with two young potential stars with clear roles, with him also having a cleat role. I disagree completely with the idea of taking two young guys and attempting to transition them from cornerstones to second and third or fourth fiddles. That never works. You can supplement one "future superstar" by introducing a current stud, but you can't tell a guy to be, and that he has to be, the man, and then push him to a third or fourth option. Our franchise is run like an elementary program.

The model of success is finding your one, two, or three studs, then you compliment them. We have gone the opposite. Thibs has not only muddled our present, but also our future.

RIP FLIP

TheFuture wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

thedoper wrote:I'm surprised by the lack of pessimism around this team generally here and in the various media sources local and national. I think the alternative needs to be looked at. If we didn't trade for Butler for instance we are a lottery team. Would that have made us happier or more optimistic? If we made different free agent signings we would have been at or near the same outcome. This team no matter who was our coach or GM is was going to be linked to the long term development of Towns and Wiggins. So are we so much less optimistic because they grossly under performed relative to their potential? Any GM or coach would have had a huge task to bring what we had at this point last year to where we are at right now. We have way more assets, options, and ways to build this team. And yes I believe Towns and Wiggins can continue to improve and develop. I am super excited.

I may be alone, but I still would prefer a lineup of:

Rubio/Tyus
LaVine/Dunn
Wiggins
Bjelly
KAT/Dieng

And whoever we could have added with 20+ mil and the #7 pick.

We still would have been in that 6-10 playoff push, but kept a lot more area to grow. Color me still disappointed.

I see your perspective and I don't even disagree with it. Some things to think about...

So you know that Rubio shot better percentages than Lavine this year right? Thinking that squad would have been a fringe playoff team seems overly optimistic. Lavine played only 24 games. Dunn only played 52. I think we would have been fortunate to be a Lakers type squad not terrible but a clear step lower than the playoffs. That may not have been a bad spot to be in but it still means we would be a fairly big step away from the playoffs and likely would be having to pay Lavine not really knowing what we really had on him and this is coming from a guy who LOVES Lavine and didn't want him to be traded.

Trading Rubio means we have another draft pick and a way to get a possible worthwhile piece going forward. Maybe we pick a dud but the potential is there to get a solid player or heck maybe we find a real gem of some sort. Jimmy Butler and Taj Gibson were certainly not lottery picks.

Lavine also would be in those games with two young potential stars with clear roles, with him also having a cleat role. I disagree completely with the idea of taking two young guys and attempting to transition them from cornerstones to second and third or fourth fiddles. That never works. You can supplement one "future superstar" by introducing a current stud, but you can't tell a guy to be, and that he has to be, the man, and then push him to a third or fourth option. Our franchise is run like an elementary program.

The model of success is finding your one, two, or three studs, then you compliment them. We have gone the opposite. Thibs has not only muddled our present, but also our future.

RIP FLIP

I get where you are coming from but Butler is the 2nd best player to ever play for this franchise. If Wiggins and Towns can't play with him they aren't really that good.

Meanwhile Lavine got to do whatever he wanted in Chicago and acted a good start it went poorly. I honestly thought he would be healthy sooner and look better than he did. I was wrong there. There should be at least some worry about both him and Dunn being healthy going forward and I would absolutely say that even if they were Wolves. I was a Rubio guy all those years but I wondered if he could stay healthy as he had problems in Europe as well. That hasn't been a problem for him. That also hasn't been a problem for Bazz either and that was a bit of a concern for him too.

Let's get to this 20+ million in cap space. Who is the guy or guys we were going to get with that cap space? Heck we spent a chunk of that on Taj in the actual scenario and he had a very good season. Redick? KCP? That's one guy I don't think they would have been enough to get us to the next level although Redick would have been the guy that helped the most right away but doesn't fit your build the young guys model.

Really the bottom line is that this team has to do what you want building through youth but with a different path. People have basically given up on Patton and that's probably fair (and a good strategy to avoid disappointment) but one of the best players in the NBA had a similar surgery and has been ballin for a couple years in Durant. Bigs are a bigger concern but I also remember a number of people (I didn't think it looked good) had CJ McCollum pretty much buried as a bust after a year and a half or whatever partly because of injury. Tyus is still a nice developmental piece. A guy like Jefferson or MGH or some other undrafted or euro player we sign could be a factor too along with the upcoming draft picks. Again we need to see something positive in the developmental areas of this team next season or...yeah this isn't looking good. That could have been the case no matter what path was taken though.

What is Kris Dunn? Solid starting PG? Marcus Smart 2.0? I was a person last year that still believed he had a worthwhile value to the Wolves going forward but I wasn't sure it was as a starter. It's looking better for him now for the Bulls but he still isn't that impressive at least offensively.

If we had taken the path you suggested I would have been perfectly fine doing that in fact that was my preference at the time. I think sometimes the possibility of development of this team going forward via younger players is to some extent underrated. Most people thought last summer MGH was a complete afterthought. Now he is a guy people have a little bit of hope for. He and Jefferson seem like guys that fit in here with what Thibs wants to do in the culture particularly. I noticed in one of the playoff games Jefferson was sitting on the bench next to a player that had came out of the game and looked very engaged and pointing and discussing with them something that had been happening on the floor etc. The good franchises can find guys like that and non-lottery picks and develop them. We need to be that type of franchise. It's not too much to ask especially with a G-league team now.

kekgeek1 wrote:

thedoper wrote:I'm surprised by the lack of pessimism around this team generally here and in the various media sources local and national. I think the alternative needs to be looked at. If we didn't trade for Butler for instance we are a lottery team. Would that have made us happier or more optimistic? If we made different free agent signings we would have been at or near the same outcome. This team no matter who was our coach or GM is was going to be linked to the long term development of Towns and Wiggins. So are we so much less optimistic because they grossly under performed relative to their potential? Any GM or coach would have had a huge task to bring what we had at this point last year to where we are at right now. We have way more assets, options, and ways to build this team. And yes I believe Towns and Wiggins can continue to improve and develop. I am super excited.

I feel like Me/you/monster are in the more optimistic group (doesn't mean it is right or wrong) on the Wolves prospects coming up in the next couple of years but that doesn't mean that the wolves situation is very awkward at the moment.

I think the thing that makes it really awkward is that the Wolves really have no back door plan if it goes bad next offseason. Right now the Wolves are against the cap. So we can only use the MLE and the Wolves still need to sign 2 of our at least decent bench players in Belly and Tyus. So because we are up against the cap we might not be able to sign the 2 bench guys who have actually been decent for us. That does not mean they are not replaceable though but it is nice to be able to develop our own bench talent.

The Thing is if Butler wants out next year, the wolves are still stuck with Wiggins/Town/Teague and Gorgui alone going to make approx. 97 mil for those 4 alone. So we will not be able to replace the contributions that Jimmy was able to bring.

The wolves need to hit on draft picks to bring in young cheap talent. That is the difference between a excellent organization and one that just sits in the middle of the pack. Can you hit on middle 1st round to 2nd round picks. Right now it is not looking good on the Patton pick. Cant fault him getting hurt and it is very bad luck but still it is a missed asset that we could of had. Look at the teams in the playoffs with the middle to 2nd round picks. Warriors: Green, Rockets: Capela, Boston: Rozier, Bucks: Greek Freak and Brogdon, Jazz: Gobert, also traded up to get Mitchell, Sixers: Covington.

We have to hit on draft picks. Also we need Wiggins and Towns to continue to develop. I think Wiggins got better this year. But he is still nowhere near where he needs to be for us to legit contend.

Now I still do the Butler trade 100 out of 100 times. But we need Thibs and company, to draft well, and the continued development of Kat and Wiggins and if they don't develop we are in the middle ground of the NBA.

I think you are spot on here with your assessment Kekgeek IF they choose to take a more incremental approach to the roster. It should be no surprise that I am highly skeptical of Wiggins developing into much more than he already is, which is totally unacceptable given his contract. I'd prefer a more aggressive approach that looks to shop Wiggins, potentially move Teague to a 6th man role, and see if there is any way we can unload Dieng and replace him with a guy like Baynes.

Q12543 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

thedoper wrote:I'm surprised by the lack of pessimism around this team generally here and in the various media sources local and national. I think the alternative needs to be looked at. If we didn't trade for Butler for instance we are a lottery team. Would that have made us happier or more optimistic? If we made different free agent signings we would have been at or near the same outcome. This team no matter who was our coach or GM is was going to be linked to the long term development of Towns and Wiggins. So are we so much less optimistic because they grossly under performed relative to their potential? Any GM or coach would have had a huge task to bring what we had at this point last year to where we are at right now. We have way more assets, options, and ways to build this team. And yes I believe Towns and Wiggins can continue to improve and develop. I am super excited.

I feel like Me/you/monster are in the more optimistic group (doesn't mean it is right or wrong) on the Wolves prospects coming up in the next couple of years but that doesn't mean that the wolves situation is very awkward at the moment.

I think the thing that makes it really awkward is that the Wolves really have no back door plan if it goes bad next offseason. Right now the Wolves are against the cap. So we can only use the MLE and the Wolves still need to sign 2 of our at least decent bench players in Belly and Tyus. So because we are up against the cap we might not be able to sign the 2 bench guys who have actually been decent for us. That does not mean they are not replaceable though but it is nice to be able to develop our own bench talent.

The Thing is if Butler wants out next year, the wolves are still stuck with Wiggins/Town/Teague and Gorgui alone going to make approx. 97 mil for those 4 alone. So we will not be able to replace the contributions that Jimmy was able to bring.

The wolves need to hit on draft picks to bring in young cheap talent. That is the difference between a excellent organization and one that just sits in the middle of the pack. Can you hit on middle 1st round to 2nd round picks. Right now it is not looking good on the Patton pick. Cant fault him getting hurt and it is very bad luck but still it is a missed asset that we could of had. Look at the teams in the playoffs with the middle to 2nd round picks. Warriors: Green, Rockets: Capela, Boston: Rozier, Bucks: Greek Freak and Brogdon, Jazz: Gobert, also traded up to get Mitchell, Sixers: Covington.

We have to hit on draft picks. Also we need Wiggins and Towns to continue to develop. I think Wiggins got better this year. But he is still nowhere near where he needs to be for us to legit contend.

Now I still do the Butler trade 100 out of 100 times. But we need Thibs and company, to draft well, and the continued development of Kat and Wiggins and if they don't develop we are in the middle ground of the NBA.

I think you are spot on here with your assessment Kekgeek IF they choose to take a more incremental approach to the roster. It should be no surprise that I am highly skeptical of Wiggins developing into much more than he already is, which is totally unacceptable given his contract. I'd prefer a more aggressive approach that looks to shop Wiggins, potentially move Teague to a 6th man role, and see if there is any way we can unload Dieng and replace him with a guy like Baynes.

I agree with Kekgeek. Given that we can only use around $5.4 million of our MLE, it's hard to see how this team goes from barely making the playoffs this season to becoming a championship contender. We don't have the cap room to improve significantly via free agency. Our first round pick from last season is having a second foot surgery and, even when healthy, he was a mediocre player at the G-League level. And we don't have tradeable contracts, except for KAT and perhaps Butler. Trading KAT would be idiotic.

Trading Wiggins is tempting if there's someone out there willing to give a lot of value in return. But I'd be reluctant to deal him this summer. I still remember a prior Wolves regime giving up on Chauncey Billups. OKC gave up on Oladipo after his 4th season in favor of Paul George. In his 5th season, Oladipo became the star player Flip though he'd be back when Flip was trying to trade up in the draft to get him.

My main concern about giving up on Wiggins is that it would mean going all on building around Butler and KAT. I just don't see a team built primarily around those two becoming a championship contender. More specifically, I just don't feel secure resting my championship hopes on Jimmy Butler. Several reasons for that. First, he simply can't stay healthy. He's averaged around 67 games per season over his career and played at least 70 games in only two of his seven seasons. And that history spans his career while in his early and mid-20s. He'll be 29 before next season starts and just had meniscus surgery. According to Thibodeau, Jimmy was having knee pain in our last playoff game. And even when healthy, I don't believe Butler is in that elite class of players like LeBron, Durant, Curry, Harden or Westbrook. Finally, Butler can opt out and leave as a FA after this next season or break the Wolves bank by insisting on a max contract, which would probably be around $30 million per year.

I wouldn't blow things up this summer. Instead, I'd try to improve our bench via free agency and our two draft picks. I'd use our limited MLE to sign the best possible shot-blocking big or 3D wing. I'd use our two draft picks to try and get a Kyle Kuzma caliber player at any position. In other words, I'd draft the best available player who looks like he could contribute right away. I we end up on the fringe of playoff contention by the trade deadline, I'd trade Butler along with Teague and start retooling around KAT and Wiggins.

Our path to improvement is through Wiggins and Towns. They just need to get better. Role players are not the difference people here are looking for. Bringing in all these supplemental pieces is not the real answer. Those are patch jobs. The real path to improvement is our two still young #1 picks need to start playing night in and night out like they are the best players on the court. That is our path to both being a top team in the West and eventually becoming a contender. That was always the path and they just aren't good enough yet which is why we were an 8 seed this year and not a 4-5 seed. The Pelicans got better after Demarcus went down because AD carried that team night in and night out. Lillard and CJ carried that team all year long. Mitchell and Gobert carried that Utah squad. It's time for Towns and Wiggins to actually carry this team to wins and stop blaming the pieces around them. Other guys are working with arguable less around them, yet they are impacting the game a lot more and their teams are winning because of it. You're looking in the wrong place if you were expecting the full MLE to push us to the next level. The core pieces need to do that work.