Minnesota Sports Forum

Camden wrote:I empathize with the argument pertaining to the small sample size of games that we have of James Wiseman playing against collegiate competition, but the knocks on his character or how he handled his situation at Memphis seems very off to me. Not only was Wiseman suspended for 12 games in part because of a wonky classification that his former high school coach Penny Hardaway was a booster, but the NCAA also stipulated Wiseman was required to donate $11,500 to a charity of his choosing. He could not receive outside help nor could he accept any money from GoFundMe pages set up in his support -- including the one ESPN's Jay Williams created and used his platform to push forward. As he puts it in the following video link, he just didn't have that kind of money being a regular college kid. A weird punishment for the "crime" if you ask me, but it is what it is.

Additionally, you cannot say this kid doesn't love basketball. In that ESPN sit-down with Wiseman, he says that everything was sad for him because he just wanted to play with his teammates and help the team. In regards to someone saying he was traumatized by these happenings, I think that's more so that he was upset he couldn't play what was likely going to be his only year of college basketball -- not that he's in any way mentally weak or unstable.

This guy is the clear-cut best prospect in this draft. He's a physical freak with skills and attitude to match. Areas of his game aren't refined yet, obviously, but his strengths are very real and translatable. He could step on an NBA court tomorrow and be legitimate factor. Also, the kid turns 19-years old in March. Plenty of maturing for his body and game left. High ceiling and high floor, in my opinion.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/dPrHow9uUBo[/youtube]

To be fair... that $11,500 didn't come out of nowhere.

May 2017: Wiseman leaves current AAU team to join Hardaway's AAU team.
September 2017: Wiseman leaves his Nashville high school to play for Hardaway's Memphis East High School.
September 2017: Hardaway gave the Wisemans $11,500 to move to Memphis... all the while claiming he was not affiliated beyond sponsorships with Team Penny AAU, never really spoke to Wiseman and certainly didn't recruit him.
November 2017: Wiseman ruled ineligible for the shady stuff with Hardaway + recruitment. Overturned.
2018: Hardaway becomes coach at Memphis.
October 2019: The initial ruling about Wiseman being ineligible in high school is determined to be the correct one... they rule after the fact.
November 2019: The NCAA "finds out" about the $11,500 Hardaway gave the kid who played for his AAU team but who he barely knew and definitely didn't recruit...
At some point in the timeline: Wiseman changes his story repeatedly with many inconsistencies during legal depositions about the case.

So, that's a bit more context... and should help explain where the $11,500 comes from.

Personally, I wouldn't call it some "wonky" rule. We all know the NCAA recruiting trail is shady. Very shady. We should all know AAU ball is shady. Very shady. Just the fact that Wiseman joined Team Penny AAU in the middle of the circuit ("but wasn't recruited") is so ridiculous that it's pretty insulting.

All that being said, do I blame Wiseman or consider him a bad kid? No. I don't know him as a person, only that he's been a "star" for years and treated as such. It's the name of the game for these kids. Personally, I just don't dig having two 7 footers in a small man's game. I'd prefer to trade down...

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:I empathize with the argument pertaining to the small sample size of games that we have of James Wiseman playing against collegiate competition, but the knocks on his character or how he handled his situation at Memphis seems very off to me. Not only was Wiseman suspended for 12 games in part because of a wonky classification that his former high school coach Penny Hardaway was a booster, but the NCAA also stipulated Wiseman was required to donate $11,500 to a charity of his choosing. He could not receive outside help nor could he accept any money from GoFundMe pages set up in his support -- including the one ESPN's Jay Williams created and used his platform to push forward. As he puts it in the following video link, he just didn't have that kind of money being a regular college kid. A weird punishment for the "crime" if you ask me, but it is what it is.

Additionally, you cannot say this kid doesn't love basketball. In that ESPN sit-down with Wiseman, he says that everything was sad for him because he just wanted to play with his teammates and help the team. In regards to someone saying he was traumatized by these happenings, I think that's more so that he was upset he couldn't play what was likely going to be his only year of college basketball -- not that he's in any way mentally weak or unstable.

This guy is the clear-cut best prospect in this draft. He's a physical freak with skills and attitude to match. Areas of his game aren't refined yet, obviously, but his strengths are very real and translatable. He could step on an NBA court tomorrow and be legitimate factor. Also, the kid turns 19-years old in March. Plenty of maturing for his body and game left. High ceiling and high floor, in my opinion.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/dPrHow9uUBo[/youtube]

To be fair... that $11,500 didn't come out of nowhere.

May 2017: Wiseman leaves current AAU team to join Hardaway's AAU team.
September 2017: Wiseman leaves his Nashville high school to play for Hardaway's Memphis East High School.
September 2017: Hardaway gave the Wisemans $11,500 to move to Memphis... all the while claiming he was not affiliated beyond sponsorships with Team Penny AAU, never really spoke to Wiseman and certainly didn't recruit him.
November 2017: Wiseman ruled ineligible for the shady stuff with Hardaway + recruitment. Overturned.
2018: Hardaway becomes coach at Memphis.
October 2019: The initial ruling about Wiseman being ineligible in high school is determined to be the correct one... they rule after the fact.
November 2019: The NCAA "finds out" about the $11,500 Hardaway gave the kid who played for his AAU team but who he barely knew and definitely didn't recruit...
At some point in the timeline: Wiseman changes his story repeatedly with many inconsistencies during legal depositions about the case.

So, that's a bit more context... and should help explain where the $11,500 comes from.

Personally, I wouldn't call it some "wonky" rule. We all know the NCAA recruiting trail is shady. Very shady. We should all know AAU ball is shady. Very shady. Just the fact that Wiseman joined Team Penny AAU in the middle of the circuit ("but wasn't recruited") is so ridiculous that it's pretty insulting.

All that being said, do I blame Wiseman or consider him a bad kid? No. I don't know him as a person, only that he's been a "star" for years and treated as such. It's the name of the game for these kids. Personally, I just don't dig having two 7 footers in a small man's game. I'd prefer to trade down...

The rule itself isn't wonky nor did I say it was such. I said the classification of Penny Hardaway as a booster throughout the matter definitely was. He wasn't affiliated with college hoops when he gave the Wiseman family $11,500 to move locations -- or play for his high school team, whatever the case may be. It was that piece of information about Hardaway being a booster that created a big stink in the eyes of the disciplinarians.

Additionally, and I have nothing to back this with, but I'd bet that a lot shadier actions have happened with larger programs that get aired out and swept under the rug because of the revenue they bring into college hoops. Memphis clearly isn't a Duke, Kansas, or North Carolina so I think they got a much harsher ruling than one of those programs would have received, if any.

To your point about not wanting to have "two seven-footers in a small man's game" I'd argue that it's only turned into a small man's game because most teams don't have bigs capable of defending the perimeter, spacing the floor, and/or punishing these smaller players in the paint and on the glass. A frontcourt pairing of Karl-Anthony Towns and James Wiseman would, in theory, be a small ball killer.

I'm very much in favor of zigging while other teams zag instead of being late to the party. Why should Gersson Rosas build a Great Value version of the Houston Rockets when he could potentially give all of these trendy small ball teams fits with a modern lineup that still has immense size? It's essentially what the Sixers attempted to do with their pairing of Joel Embiid and Al Horford, but neither of them can effectively space the floor. Welp. Towns is literally the best shooting big in the history of the game and Wiseman has Chris Bosh-like potential from outside as well.

Lastly, for those that think the whole idea of what I outlined just couldn't work in today's NBA, I'd ask you to think about these fantasy frontcourt duos:

Joel Embiid + Kristaps Porzingis
Anthony Davis + Jaren Jackson Jr.
Rudy Gobert + Pascal Siakam
Bam Adebayo + John Collins
Clint Capela + Paul Millsap

I'd argue that all of those combinations would wreak havoc on the league -- even more so if there was a dynamic ball-handler running the offense. See: D'Angelo Russell.

I'm just not seeing much compelling talent at the top of this draft. Every one of these guys seems to have some gaping weakness or issue that makes them a poor fit for the roster.

I'd much rather draft the BPA and then trade him as part of a deal to bring on board a young-ish 3 or 4 that has at least a year or two under their belt and we think can better compliment KAT and DLO.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/H_ny0wkkOrQ[/youtube]

I'd advise those that decide to watch the linked video to ignore the comments at the end by Jay Williams and Paul Pierce as I don't find them to be very good analysts rather they're more ESPN entertainers than anything. However, Mike Schmitz is absolutely fantastic at his job and Adrian Wojnarowski usually gets some solid insight from his connections within other teams' front offices. Schmitz discusses what James Wiseman's ideal fit would be as well as what kind of skills he has at his disposal -- rim running, anchoring the defense, outside shooting, mid-post, etc.

Just posting for those that may not have the time to watch or find much of these videos.

Camden wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:I empathize with the argument pertaining to the small sample size of games that we have of James Wiseman playing against collegiate competition, but the knocks on his character or how he handled his situation at Memphis seems very off to me. Not only was Wiseman suspended for 12 games in part because of a wonky classification that his former high school coach Penny Hardaway was a booster, but the NCAA also stipulated Wiseman was required to donate $11,500 to a charity of his choosing. He could not receive outside help nor could he accept any money from GoFundMe pages set up in his support -- including the one ESPN's Jay Williams created and used his platform to push forward. As he puts it in the following video link, he just didn't have that kind of money being a regular college kid. A weird punishment for the "crime" if you ask me, but it is what it is.

Additionally, you cannot say this kid doesn't love basketball. In that ESPN sit-down with Wiseman, he says that everything was sad for him because he just wanted to play with his teammates and help the team. In regards to someone saying he was traumatized by these happenings, I think that's more so that he was upset he couldn't play what was likely going to be his only year of college basketball -- not that he's in any way mentally weak or unstable.

This guy is the clear-cut best prospect in this draft. He's a physical freak with skills and attitude to match. Areas of his game aren't refined yet, obviously, but his strengths are very real and translatable. He could step on an NBA court tomorrow and be legitimate factor. Also, the kid turns 19-years old in March. Plenty of maturing for his body and game left. High ceiling and high floor, in my opinion.

To be fair... that $11,500 didn't come out of nowhere.

May 2017: Wiseman leaves current AAU team to join Hardaway's AAU team.
September 2017: Wiseman leaves his Nashville high school to play for Hardaway's Memphis East High School.
September 2017: Hardaway gave the Wisemans $11,500 to move to Memphis... all the while claiming he was not affiliated beyond sponsorships with Team Penny AAU, never really spoke to Wiseman and certainly didn't recruit him.
November 2017: Wiseman ruled ineligible for the shady stuff with Hardaway + recruitment. Overturned.
2018: Hardaway becomes coach at Memphis.
October 2019: The initial ruling about Wiseman being ineligible in high school is determined to be the correct one... they rule after the fact.
November 2019: The NCAA "finds out" about the $11,500 Hardaway gave the kid who played for his AAU team but who he barely knew and definitely didn't recruit...
At some point in the timeline: Wiseman changes his story repeatedly with many inconsistencies during legal depositions about the case.

So, that's a bit more context... and should help explain where the $11,500 comes from.

Personally, I wouldn't call it some "wonky" rule. We all know the NCAA recruiting trail is shady. Very shady. We should all know AAU ball is shady. Very shady. Just the fact that Wiseman joined Team Penny AAU in the middle of the circuit ("but wasn't recruited") is so ridiculous that it's pretty insulting.

All that being said, do I blame Wiseman or consider him a bad kid? No. I don't know him as a person, only that he's been a "star" for years and treated as such. It's the name of the game for these kids. Personally, I just don't dig having two 7 footers in a small man's game. I'd prefer to trade down...

The rule itself isn't wonky nor did I say it was such. I said the classification of Penny Hardaway as a booster throughout the matter definitely was. He wasn't affiliated with college hoops when he gave the Wiseman family $11,500 to move locations -- or play for his high school team, whatever the case may be. It was that piece of information about Hardaway being a booster that created a big stink in the eyes of the disciplinarians.

Additionally, and I have nothing to back this with, but I'd bet that a lot shadier actions have happened with larger programs that get aired out and swept under the rug because of the revenue they bring into college hoops. Memphis clearly isn't a Duke, Kansas, or North Carolina so I think they got a much harsher ruling than one of those programs would have received, if any.

To your point about not wanting to have "two seven-footers in a small man's game" I'd argue that it's only turned into a small man's game because most teams don't have bigs capable of defending the perimeter, spacing the floor, and/or punishing these smaller players in the paint and on the glass. A frontcourt pairing of Karl-Anthony Towns and James Wiseman would, in theory, be a small ball killer.

I'm very much in favor of zigging while other teams zag instead of being late to the party. Why should Gersson Rosas build a Great Value version of the Houston Rockets when he could potentially give all of these trendy small ball teams fits with a modern lineup that still has immense size? It's essentially what the Sixers attempted to do with their pairing of Joel Embiid and Al Horford, but neither of them can effectively space the floor. Welp. Towns is literally the best shooting big in the history of the game and Wiseman has Chris Bosh-like potential from outside as well.

Lastly, for those that think the whole idea of what I outlined just couldn't work in today's NBA, I'd ask you to think about these fantasy frontcourt duos:

Joel Embiid + Kristaps Porzingis
Anthony Davis + Jaren Jackson Jr.
Rudy Gobert + Pascal Siakam
Bam Adebayo + John Collins
Clint Capela + Paul Millsap

I'd argue that all of those combinations would wreak havoc on the league -- even more so if there was a dynamic ball-handler running the offense. See: D'Angelo Russell.

1. I'm not going to defend Hardaway for being shady... or say it's ok because other coaches are shady. He got busted. But in the end, he and Wiseman both got what they wanted... Wiseman might go #1... Hardaway got a pipeline for his Memphis program (and maybe the job itself).

2. Even though I have my reservations about twin 7 footers... I do think zigging while others zag is an approach that a team like MN should take. The rub is that I don't believe we have the infrastructure in place for it. Taylor certainly isn't the guy. Rosas seems like a third-rate Morey clone thus far. And Saunders might come from one of the weakest coaching trees among today's NBA coaches.

Now, maybe Rosas has a lot more up his sleeve. We'll see. I just haven't seen the infrastructure yet to say that the Wolves have what it takes to pull off a bold trend-setting move. Chalk it up to 31 years of history that I've had to endure that makes me skeptical...

Camden wrote:I empathize with the argument pertaining to the small sample size of games that we have of James Wiseman playing against collegiate competition, but the knocks on his character or how he handled his situation at Memphis seems very off to me. Not only was Wiseman suspended for 12 games in part because of a wonky classification that his former high school coach Penny Hardaway was a booster, but the NCAA also stipulated Wiseman was required to donate $11,500 to a charity of his choosing. He could not receive outside help nor could he accept any money from GoFundMe pages set up in his support -- including the one ESPN's Jay Williams created and used his platform to push forward. As he puts it in the following video link, he just didn't have that kind of money being a regular college kid. A weird punishment for the "crime" if you ask me, but it is what it is.

Additionally, you cannot say this kid doesn't love basketball. In that ESPN sit-down with Wiseman, he says that everything was sad for him because he just wanted to play with his teammates and help the team. In regards to someone saying he was traumatized by these happenings, I think that's more so that he was upset he couldn't play what was likely going to be his only year of college basketball -- not that he's in any way mentally weak or unstable.

This guy is the clear-cut best prospect in this draft. He's a physical freak with skills and attitude to match. Areas of his game aren't refined yet, obviously, but his strengths are very real and translatable. He could step on an NBA court tomorrow and be legitimate factor. Also, the kid turns 19-years old in March. Plenty of maturing for his body and game left. High ceiling and high floor, in my opinion.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/dPrHow9uUBo[/youtube]

Like I said, tough situation. But to me, these guys and their families should know not to take any money as charity, bottom line. This has been the situation for years. Do the rules suck? Yes. But everyone knows the game, especially Penny Hardaway. Wiseman may be a great character individual, I don't know. I would be sure that he was if he went the difficult road of accepting the punishment, rather than hiring lawyers for injunctions and then walking away from it.

thedoper wrote:Like I said, tough situation. But to me, these guys and their families should know not to take any money as charity, bottom line. This has been the situation for years. Do the rules suck? Yes. But everyone knows the game, especially Penny Hardaway. Wiseman may be a great character individual, I don't know. I would be sure that he was if he went the difficult road of accepting the punishment, rather than hiring lawyers for injunctions and then walking away from it.

That's not the difficult road. That's the near impossible road. How was he supposed to pay $11,500 on his own while continuing to be a student athlete, which is what he would still be had he "accepted the punishment" as you said? Keep in mind, most collegiate athletes do not have the time available to get a job due to the commitment of classes, practices, travel, and games. He wasn't allowed to accept any donations. He obviously can't take any money from agents. He can't sell memorabilia to include autographs. Maybe he should have opened up a lemonade stand or worked the concessions during those Memphis home games? I just don't think it was as feasible as you might think it to be. A 12 game suspension is whatever, but paying back that $11,500 on his own while maintaining his responsibilities seems to be the more challenging aspect that needs to be understood here.

Leaving Memphis under those circumstances seemed like the only sensible thing to do.

Camden0916 wrote:

thedoper wrote:Like I said, tough situation. But to me, these guys and their families should know not to take any money as charity, bottom line. This has been the situation for years. Do the rules suck? Yes. But everyone knows the game, especially Penny Hardaway. Wiseman may be a great character individual, I don't know. I would be sure that he was if he went the difficult road of accepting the punishment, rather than hiring lawyers for injunctions and then walking away from it.

That's not the difficult road. That's the near impossible road. How was he supposed to pay $11,500 on his own while continuing to be a student athlete, which is what he would still be had he "accepted the punishment" as you said? Keep in mind, most collegiate athletes do not have the time available to get a job due to the commitment of classes, practices, travel, and games. He wasn't allowed to accept any donations. He obviously can't take any money from agents. He can't sell memorabilia to include autographs. Maybe he should have opened up a lemonade stand or worked the concessions during those Memphis home games? I just don't think it was as feasible as you might think it to be. A 12 game suspension is whatever, but paying back that $11,500 on his own while maintaining his responsibilities seems to be the more challenging aspect that needs to be understood here.

Leaving Memphis under those circumstances seemed like the only sensible thing to do.

He could have directed those lawyers he hired at fighting the fine while admitting some culpability, which would have been the logical and probably outcome in regards to a fine like this. Lawyers with the power to submit a restraining order could have also argued a reduced fine. Leaving Memphis was the only thing to do if you refuse any culpability in it all. Maybe he is totally innocent, but the discussion began with red flags. I'd say this incident still implies potential character issues, that he was either so unaware with his business dealings that he didnt know he was wrong, or that he knowingly took money and wasnt willing to do the right thing when caught. He did make a choice that made sense to him and has been supported by popular opinion. Im just not sure its as simple as you and other former players with a vested interest in the issue are portraying it.

I can see it now. Bring in Wiseman, we have the new Twin Towers! Which one is Hakeem, which one is Sampson?

papalrep wrote:I can see it now. Bring in Wiseman, we have the new Twin Towers! Which one is Hakeem, which one is Sampson?

Ha. I think James Wiseman would prefer the Spurs' version of the Twin Towers! He's said multiple times that he models his game around David Robinson. He's also mentioned Anthony Davis and Giannis Antetokounmpo as guys he looks up to and takes things from their games, for what it's worth.

Wiseman certainly looks like a young Robinson physically. Here's how he stacks up with some other impressive bigs from a physical standpoint:

Wiseman: 7'1", 247-pounds, 7'4.5" wingspan, 9'6" standing reach
Robinson: 7'1", 236-pounds
Joel Embiid: 7'1", 265-pounds, 7'5.75" wingspan, 9'5.5" standing reach
DeAndre Jordan: 6'11", 250-pounds, 7'6" wingspan, 9'5.5" standing reach
Greg Oden: 7'0", 257-pounds, 7'4.25" wingspan, 9'4" standing reach