Phenom's_Revenge wrote:I'm up in arms to the notion that we trade Ricky for, at best, a lateral move. I personally don't like those 3 over Ricky. Now if Ricky is traded for a substantial upgrade at point or another position that is a different story but does anyone expect that? With the point guard heavy league and point guard heavy draft that currently exists, the value I would expect likely isn't there. All of these rumors are basically trading Ricky for the sake of change. That's a hideous proposition for this team. There is soooooo much more that needs fixing.
To be fair, maybe a different type of PG makes some of those other changes easier?
It was good to see Rubio have a decent run of competence from the field. I'm not sure if Thibs and Co. are sold on it... nor do I know if they should be. With Rubio on the team, the Wolves are destined to play a certain style of ball.
And that might (or might not) be the style the Wolves need to play to get closer to relevance. Yes, yes... we all know the defense is the primary culprit with the losing. Unless we're actively taking a step back with a new PG though, I don't see why trading Rubio isn't on table considering a 51-loss team has deficiencies everywhere... including at the point.
khans2k5 wrote:
Ricky played with an MVP candidate in Love before the league started going small and this year Towns got votes for All-NBA 3rd team. Ricky isn't playing with scrubs anymore. The it's not his fault, it's everyone else is the weak argument at this point. He's now played on two teams with an elite player next to him and those teams haven't made the playoffs. If Ricky played like AD and Cousins I wouldn't call him a loser just like I stuck up for Love, but if you aren't playing at that level you don't get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to winning. They're doing everything for those teams with no help. Meanwhile the arguments for Ricky are always he needs to be carried to success. He doesn't even deserve to be in the same sentence as those guys because of that fact. The whole premise of this article was Ricky is traded. So I'm assuming that trade has filled another hole and his role needs to be filled. If I had to pick between Ricky and signing someone to that 3/4 role or trading for that guy and signing one of the three in the article I'm taking option 2. Ricky has played next to two high level players and we can't even get to .500. He's just not a good support player. He needs multiple players to carry him to success and I'm done with that.
I've never been in danger of going full Porkchop, but my level of support for Rubio has waned over the past couple years. That said, this current teams failure is not on the offensive end which is also where Rubio's history of poor shooting can truly be said to hurt the team. He's been a solid defender from day one and IMO that has never changed and I don't think it's fair to blame Rubio for the fact that he and Dunn are the only two guys on the team to play even average defense.
I'm open to trading anyone assuming the trade makes the Wolves better, not just this season, but also increases their odds of eventually winning a championship. That being the case I'm more than willing to trade Rubio, but I'm not going to lay the blame for this team's inability to stop opponents from scoring at his feet.
Phenom's_Revenge wrote:None of them are better than Ricky and will cost more. What a plan!
That's debatable. They've all been to the playoffs and Ricky hasn't. Two of them have been on number 1 seeds in the East. At some point Ricky's lack of winning should count against him when comparing him to his peers. 9/9 and a career loser just isn't better than these guys.
Is it fair to compare those playoff rosters against what Ricky had worked with? Plus we need to project what is forthcoming. That's really the critical component here. Even if you think these guys are minimally better than Ricky, which is best case scenario for them, the cost difference will probably not be minimal. There are so many other pressing needs for this team. I hope Thibs isn't wasting time on this.
Yeah, the "he's a loser" argument is weak. It's true that he never materialized into the transformational point guard that many hoped he could become (DX had him mocked as a #1 pick before there were concerns about whether he'd come over to the U.S. right away), but he has definitely established himself as a solid, credible starting NBA point guard.
By the "loser" argument, I guess Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins are not very good either then? I don't think Cousins has ever won more than 30-some games and Davis has been on one winning squad that got bounced in the first round of the playoffs.
Ricky played with an MVP candidate in Love before the league started going small and this year Towns got votes for All-NBA 3rd team. Ricky isn't playing with scrubs anymore. The it's not his fault, it's everyone else is the weak argument at this point. He's now played on two teams with an elite player next to him and those teams haven't made the playoffs. If Ricky played like AD and Cousins I wouldn't call him a loser just like I stuck up for Love, but if you aren't playing at that level you don't get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to winning. They're doing everything for those teams with no help. Meanwhile the arguments for Ricky are always he needs to be carried to success. He doesn't even deserve to be in the same sentence as those guys because of that fact. The whole premise of this article was Ricky is traded. So I'm assuming that trade has filled another hole and his role needs to be filled. If I had to pick between Ricky and signing someone to that 3/4 role or trading for that guy and signing one of the three in the article I'm taking option 2. Ricky has played next to two high level players and we can't even get to .500. He's just not a good support player. He needs multiple players to carry him to success and I'm done with that.
Mmmm, you mention AD doing everything for his team with no help. So does that imply that Jrue Holiday isn't helping them at all? So Jrue Holiday - the guy you want over Ricky Rubio- played next to a 1st Team all-NBAer in Anthony Davis and won a total of - wait for it! - 34 games. Brilliant!
(for the record, I think Jrue Holiday is a solid starting point guard, just like Ricky. He might even be a little better. But your argument rings hollow when it undermines your own preference for a point guard!).
Phenom's_Revenge wrote:I'm up in arms to the notion that we trade Ricky for, at best, a lateral move. I personally don't like those 3 over Ricky. Now if Ricky is traded for a substantial upgrade at point or another position that is a different story but does anyone expect that? With the point guard heavy league and point guard heavy draft that currently exists, the value I would expect likely isn't there. All of these rumors are basically trading Ricky for the sake of change. That's a hideous proposition for this team. There is soooooo much more that needs fixing.
To be fair, maybe a different type of PG makes some of those other changes easier?
It was good to see Rubio have a decent run of competence from the field. I'm not sure if Thibs and Co. are sold on it... nor do I know if they should be. With Rubio on the team, the Wolves are destined to play a certain style of ball.
And that might (or might not) be the style the Wolves need to play to get closer to relevance. Yes, yes... we all know the defense is the primary culprit with the losing. Unless we're actively taking a step back with a new PG though, I don't see why trading Rubio isn't on table considering a 51-loss team has deficiencies everywhere... including at the point.
This is where I am at with Rubio. Sure it would be great if Thibs adjusted to his PG and roster as a whole, but if he is unable or unwilling to do so then he needs to bring in someone who fits Thibs' ideal PG. If the franchise is at an impasse because of Rubio and Thibs conflict in style then Rubio probably needs to go.
Khansy, It looks to me that KAT and Rubio are the two guys carrying the Wolves! Rubio is 2nd or 3rd in every major stat category from B-Ref and he is above league average in all categories as well! These two guys are the ones needing help.....
Phenom's_Revenge wrote:None of them are better than Ricky and will cost more. What a plan!
That's debatable. They've all been to the playoffs and Ricky hasn't. Two of them have been on number 1 seeds in the East. At some point Ricky's lack of winning should count against him when comparing him to his peers. 9/9 and a career loser just isn't better than these guys.
Is it fair to compare those playoff rosters against what Ricky had worked with? Plus we need to project what is forthcoming. That's really the critical component here. Even if you think these guys are minimally better than Ricky, which is best case scenario for them, the cost difference will probably not be minimal. There are so many other pressing needs for this team. I hope Thibs isn't wasting time on this.
Yeah, the "he's a loser" argument is weak. It's true that he never materialized into the transformational point guard that many hoped he could become (DX had him mocked as a #1 pick before there were concerns about whether he'd come over to the U.S. right away), but he has definitely established himself as a solid, credible starting NBA point guard.
By the "loser" argument, I guess Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins are not very good either then? I don't think Cousins has ever won more than 30-some games and Davis has been on one winning squad that got bounced in the first round of the playoffs.
Ricky played with an MVP candidate in Love before the league started going small and this year Towns got votes for All-NBA 3rd team. Ricky isn't playing with scrubs anymore. The it's not his fault, it's everyone else is the weak argument at this point. He's now played on two teams with an elite player next to him and those teams haven't made the playoffs. If Ricky played like AD and Cousins I wouldn't call him a loser just like I stuck up for Love, but if you aren't playing at that level you don't get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to winning. They're doing everything for those teams with no help. Meanwhile the arguments for Ricky are always he needs to be carried to success. He doesn't even deserve to be in the same sentence as those guys because of that fact. The whole premise of this article was Ricky is traded. So I'm assuming that trade has filled another hole and his role needs to be filled. If I had to pick between Ricky and signing someone to that 3/4 role or trading for that guy and signing one of the three in the article I'm taking option 2. Ricky has played next to two high level players and we can't even get to .500. He's just not a good support player. He needs multiple players to carry him to success and I'm done with that.
Mmmm, you mention AD doing everything for his team with no help. So does that imply that Jrue Holiday isn't helping them at all? So Jrue Holiday - the guy you want over Ricky Rubio- played next to a 1st Team all-NBAer in Anthony Davis and won a total of - wait for it! - 34 games. Brilliant!
(for the record, I think Jrue Holiday is a solid starting point guard, just like Ricky. He might even be a little better. But your argument rings hollow when it undermines your own preference for a point guard!).
Even I'll admit Jrue hasn't been great the last two years and he isn't a number 2 option that they needed him to be on that team to be successful. But I think he is more than suitable as a guy who can create and score as the third guy on a team which I don't believe Ricky can do. I think if you swapped Ricky and Jrue they'd be even worse because of Ricky's shooting issues. It's all about role. I think Jrue's role here fits the player he is and his role there was asking too much. Ricky's role here doesn't fit his strengths because we lack shooters and help/better PnR defenders for when he gets crushed in the PnR.
Khansy, It looks to me that KAT and Rubio are the two guys carrying the Wolves! Rubio is 2nd or 3rd in every major stat category from B-Ref and he is above league average in all categories as well! These two guys are the ones needing help.....
So Ricky is too good to trade away, but not good enough to be the #2 player on a playoff team? Not necessarily a good playoff team, just a playoff team which more than half the league qualifies. Sounds like a keeper. I never understood that argument for a non-all-star player. He's too good to trade, but he needs others to carry him to success.
Khansy, It looks to me that KAT and Rubio are the two guys carrying the Wolves! Rubio is 2nd or 3rd in every major stat category from B-Ref and he is above league average in all categories as well! These two guys are the ones needing help.....
Stop it, Q!!! I am already depressed enough about Wiggins future as a winning basketball player. And you keep throwing out stats that prove the point!
Khansy, It looks to me that KAT and Rubio are the two guys carrying the Wolves! Rubio is 2nd or 3rd in every major stat category from B-Ref and he is above league average in all categories as well! These two guys are the ones needing help.....
Stop it, Q!!! I am already depressed enough about Wiggins future as a winning basketball player. And you keep throwing out stats that prove the point!
I know....The Wiggins numbers are totally depressing. I do think the advanced stats don't do justice to the pressure he puts on a defense (he draws the best defender, draws a lot of fouls, etc.), but he simply has to do better and hopefully will.
Khansy, It looks to me that KAT and Rubio are the two guys carrying the Wolves! Rubio is 2nd or 3rd in every major stat category from B-Ref and he is above league average in all categories as well! These two guys are the ones needing help.....
So Ricky is too good to trade away, but not good enough to be the #2 player on a playoff team? Not necessarily a good playoff team, just a playoff team which more than half the league qualifies. Sounds like a keeper. I never understood that argument for a non-all-star player. He's too good to trade, but he needs others to carry him to success.
Not too good to trade away, but I struggle to find a deal that truly works. He sort of works here because our primary scorers are wings and a big. Most other teams rely on their PG to do a lot more scoring where we actually need a pass-first kind of guy. I just struggle to identify a deal that brings us back equivalent value.
I just think the "it's not working here with him" or "he's a loser" type argument are broad generalities that ignore the underlying details as to why we aren't winning games.
