Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:It's interesting to revisit where our heads were last April in the days leading up to the finale against Denver. I was certain we were going to beat Denver that night (we were a much better team than Denver last year) and thought that was the worst possible outcome if it meant getting the 8th seed. Lip might have been the only other poster here who understood the ramifications of a Wolves win, but I don't blame him for cheering for the Wolves that night...I would have been too if I had been in the arena like him rather than watching on TV.

But not being with the crowd allowed me to be more objective, and after I realized that the other games were going the wrong way and a win meant 8th seed, I was actively cheering against the Wolves the rest of the game. Yeah it felt weird, but as I explained here, I'm in for the long haul and a Wolves loss seemed to be better for the franchise. Of course being a wolves fan means always being let down, and this time they let me down with a win.

My position hasn't changed...that win was not good for the Wolves long-term. Let's review the implications:

1) Sure, we got the playoffs, but a playoff series that we all knew would be ill-fated. I predicted we would win one game on a night where Houston just didn't care, and that's what happened. Playoff tickets are very expensive, and it just wasn't worth it.
2) Glen has as much as said it, and it's common knowledge among those in the know...Thibs would have been fired immediately after losing that Denver game. Come on guys...do you really think playing 5 playoff games was worth suffering through another half year (and agonizing off-season) of Thibodeau? I don't.
3) In addition to the 20th pick, missing the playoffs would have allowed us to keep our 14th pick that we instead had to give up to Atlanta. Look at the guys who were available at 14, and ask yourself if you would like to have one of them on our roster.

So the choice was this...beat Denver and get a playoff series in which we were destined to be destroyed, or lose to Denver and get a new coach who hopefully would have handled the Butler situation better (how could he not have?) and started the 2018-9 season better than Thibs did, plus getting an additional lottery pick. We made the playoffs and are now on the outside looking in...Denver missed the playoffs and, in addition to adding a PF who could be a star in the future (although hurt this season) is currently sitting in first place in the West.

Are you guys still happy we won that Denver game? If you could go back in time, would you be cheering for a different result?

Lots of ifs in your scenario. Im not knocking your position but for me I'm still cheering for the Wolves to win both last year and this year. Good franchises don't have to worry so much about picking a few spots higher because they missed the playoffs. That's my expectation we become a good franchise. Is it unrealistic? Maybe for the Wolves but it's what should happen. Derrick Rose likely doesn't come back in your scenario either and he has been a positive this year and COULD be one for the next couple years. Only time will tell. It's been a fun ride watching the guy play this year for the most part.

longstrangetrip wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:This may shock people... but I disagree entirely with LST. I could not disagree more on this issue.

14 years. And as fans, we're supposed to hope to lose and choose luck ... AGAIN ... and promise... again ... and Potential ... again?

It's embarrassing to be doing that 30 years in... and after 14 consecutive seasons of abject failure. It's a loser's mentality... one that the Wolves were desperately trying to erase at the time. And it's not a take I would expect any other franchise to take -- or fanbase to accept.

Okay, I assume most of the board would agree with you. Your seem to be basing your take on avoiding embarrassment and shaking a loser's mentality. Personally, getting our asses handed to us in all but one meaningless playoff game was what was embarrassing to me. Maybe everyone here enjoyed watching our star player not showing up in the playoffs and not being competitive...I didn't. I compare that reward of making the playoffs to the rewards we would have gotten if we had lost to Denver...a lottery pick and a new coach, two things we desperately needed...and the two rewards just seem unbalanced to me.

And the loser's mentality argument just doesn't hold water with me...a loser's mentality can change overnight with the right coach and players. We beat Denver in that one game...it doesn't seem to have translated into a winner's mentality for the Wolves, or a loser's mentality for the Nuggets this year.

We live in an era where short-term pleasure is valued more than long-term gain. Sure, we got some short-term pleasure by winning that game, but it left us without a lottery pick and having to endure Thibs' ineptitude throughout the Butler saga. Is that really winning? Philly's fan base was told to stay patient during 4 seasons where they averaged less than 20 wins per season! That was short-term pain of the first degree, and short-term thinking fans whined about it. But look where they are now. Would we rather have the 76ers future or the Wolves. I think that answer is pretty clear.

I understand why it's difficult to cheer against your team, but if it means more success long-term, it's the right choice.

kekgeek1 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:This may shock people... but I disagree entirely with LST. I could not disagree more on this issue.

14 years. And as fans, we're supposed to hope to lose and choose luck ... AGAIN ... and promise... again ... and Potential ... again?

It's embarrassing to be doing that 30 years in... and after 14 consecutive seasons of abject failure. It's a loser's mentality... one that the Wolves were desperately trying to erase at the time. And it's not a take I would expect any other franchise to take -- or fanbase to accept.

Okay, I assume most of the board would agree with you. Your seem to be basing your take on avoiding embarrassment and shaking a loser's mentality. Personally, getting our asses handed to us in all but one meaningless playoff game was what was embarrassing to me. Maybe everyone here enjoyed watching our star player not showing up in the playoffs and not being competitive...I didn't. I compare that reward of making the playoffs to the rewards we would have gotten if we had lost to Denver...a lottery pick and a new coach, two things we desperately needed...and the two rewards just seem unbalanced to me.

And the loser's mentality argument just doesn't hold water with me...a loser's mentality can change overnight with the right coach and players. We beat Denver in that one game...it doesn't seem to have translated into a winner's mentality for the Wolves, or a loser's mentality for the Nuggets this year.

We live in an era where short-term pleasure is valued more than long-term gain. Sure, we got some short-term pleasure by winning that game, but it left us without a lottery pick and having to endure Thibs' ineptitude throughout the Butler saga. Is that really winning? Philly's fan base was told to stay patient during 4 seasons where they averaged less than 20 wins per season! That was short-term pain of the first degree, and short-term thinking fans whined about it. But look where they are now. Would we rather have the 76ers future or the Wolves. I think that answer is pretty clear.

I understand why it's difficult to cheer against your team, but if it means more success long-term, it's the right choice.

Just a question if we missed the playoffs last year would you be rooting for them to miss it this year. Because we wouldn't have our pick this year. Also wouldn't be able to trade our 2020 pick right now.

Just personally I like having all our assets going forward.

Nope, I definitely would be cheering for the Wolves to make the playoffs this year if we had missed last year. Losing a draft pick is tough, but not enough for me to cheer against my team...I don't recall ever cheering against the Wolves before. The main reason I wanted to lose that game last year is we needed to move on from Thibs, and I didn't think Glen would do it if he made the playoffs. I'm not going to defend Glen's decision-making if he was basing his decision on one game...in fact, I think he should have fired Thibs long before. I'm merely stating that is what the reality is.

Do you think the Butler thing would have been handled better by a different coach and GM? Wouldn't you have loved to avoid the agony of last July-December? Was one 1-4 playoff series worth all that agony? Not for me.

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:It's interesting to revisit where our heads were last April in the days leading up to the finale against Denver. I was certain we were going to beat Denver that night (we were a much better team than Denver last year) and thought that was the worst possible outcome if it meant getting the 8th seed. Lip might have been the only other poster here who understood the ramifications of a Wolves win, but I don't blame him for cheering for the Wolves that night...I would have been too if I had been in the arena like him rather than watching on TV.

But not being with the crowd allowed me to be more objective, and after I realized that the other games were going the wrong way and a win meant 8th seed, I was actively cheering against the Wolves the rest of the game. Yeah it felt weird, but as I explained here, I'm in for the long haul and a Wolves loss seemed to be better for the franchise. Of course being a wolves fan means always being let down, and this time they let me down with a win.

My position hasn't changed...that win was not good for the Wolves long-term. Let's review the implications:

1) Sure, we got the playoffs, but a playoff series that we all knew would be ill-fated. I predicted we would win one game on a night where Houston just didn't care, and that's what happened. Playoff tickets are very expensive, and it just wasn't worth it.
2) Glen has as much as said it, and it's common knowledge among those in the know...Thibs would have been fired immediately after losing that Denver game. Come on guys...do you really think playing 5 playoff games was worth suffering through another half year (and agonizing off-season) of Thibodeau? I don't.
3) In addition to the 20th pick, missing the playoffs would have allowed us to keep our 14th pick that we instead had to give up to Atlanta. Look at the guys who were available at 14, and ask yourself if you would like to have one of them on our roster.

So the choice was this...beat Denver and get a playoff series in which we were destined to be destroyed, or lose to Denver and get a new coach who hopefully would have handled the Butler situation better (how could he not have?) and started the 2018-9 season better than Thibs did, plus getting an additional lottery pick. We made the playoffs and are now on the outside looking in...Denver missed the playoffs and, in addition to adding a PF who could be a star in the future (although hurt this season) is currently sitting in first place in the West.

Are you guys still happy we won that Denver game? If you could go back in time, would you be cheering for a different result?

Lots of ifs in your scenario. Im not knocking your position but for me I'm still cheering for the Wolves to win both last year and this year. Good franchises don't have to worry so much about picking a few spots higher because they missed the playoffs. That's my expectation we become a good franchise. Is it unrealistic? Maybe for the Wolves but it's what should happen. Derrick Rose likely doesn't come back in your scenario either and he has been a positive this year and COULD be one for the next couple years. Only time will tell. It's been a fun ride watching the guy play this year for the most part.

I don't know if there are many ifs in my scenario. We clearly would have had the 14th pick if we had lost that game to Denver, so that's not an if. The only "if" I see is whether Glen would have fired Thibs (and likely Laydon), but that is almost a certainty. Glen has as much as said it, and almost every reporter in town has said it. If Thibs was fired, we don't know what would have happened but here are some "ifs".

1) Rather than appointing an interim coach which is almost a necessity mid-season, we would have had the luxury of hiring a full time coach and GM in the offseason.
2) Assuming that coach would have been hired before the draft, somebody other than Thibs and Laydon would have been in charge of picking at 14 and 20. We don't know if that person would have been better or worse than Thibs' and Laydon, but I think we can venture a guess.
3) The new coach would not have been as tied to Butler, and wouldn't have let the situation go unresolved until training camp. The team would have entered training camp and the start of the season with a trade completed and a much better attitude than the one we exhibited last fall. The stench of preseason is still in the air months later.

I admit these three things are "ifs" but I think most of us would agree they are all likely...nobody could have handled the Butler situation worse than Thibs and Laydon. Maybe Rose would have left, as you suggest. But also maybe not...he wasn't exactly a hot commodity. And as others have pointed out, we have a better record this year in games he has sat out.

monsterpile wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:It's interesting to revisit where our heads were last April in the days leading up to the finale against Denver. I was certain we were going to beat Denver that night (we were a much better team than Denver last year) and thought that was the worst possible outcome if it meant getting the 8th seed. Lip might have been the only other poster here who understood the ramifications of a Wolves win, but I don't blame him for cheering for the Wolves that night...I would have been too if I had been in the arena like him rather than watching on TV.

But not being with the crowd allowed me to be more objective, and after I realized that the other games were going the wrong way and a win meant 8th seed, I was actively cheering against the Wolves the rest of the game. Yeah it felt weird, but as I explained here, I'm in for the long haul and a Wolves loss seemed to be better for the franchise. Of course being a wolves fan means always being let down, and this time they let me down with a win.

My position hasn't changed...that win was not good for the Wolves long-term. Let's review the implications:

1) Sure, we got the playoffs, but a playoff series that we all knew would be ill-fated. I predicted we would win one game on a night where Houston just didn't care, and that's what happened. Playoff tickets are very expensive, and it just wasn't worth it.
2) Glen has as much as said it, and it's common knowledge among those in the know...Thibs would have been fired immediately after losing that Denver game. Come on guys...do you really think playing 5 playoff games was worth suffering through another half year (and agonizing off-season) of Thibodeau? I don't.
3) In addition to the 20th pick, missing the playoffs would have allowed us to keep our 14th pick that we instead had to give up to Atlanta. Look at the guys who were available at 14, and ask yourself if you would like to have one of them on our roster.

So the choice was this...beat Denver and get a playoff series in which we were destined to be destroyed, or lose to Denver and get a new coach who hopefully would have handled the Butler situation better (how could he not have?) and started the 2018-9 season better than Thibs did, plus getting an additional lottery pick. We made the playoffs and are now on the outside looking in...Denver missed the playoffs and, in addition to adding a PF who could be a star in the future (although hurt this season) is currently sitting in first place in the West.

Are you guys still happy we won that Denver game? If you could go back in time, would you be cheering for a different result?

Lots of ifs in your scenario. Im not knocking your position but for me I'm still cheering for the Wolves to win both last year and this year. Good franchises don't have to worry so much about picking a few spots higher because they missed the playoffs. That's my expectation we become a good franchise. Is it unrealistic? Maybe for the Wolves but it's what should happen. Derrick Rose likely doesn't come back in your scenario either and he has been a positive this year and COULD be one for the next couple years. Only time will tell. It's been a fun ride watching the guy play this year for the most part.

I don't know if there are many ifs in my scenario. We clearly would have had the 14th pick if we had lost that game to Denver, so that's not an if. The only "if" I see is whether Glen would have fired Thibs (and likely Laydon), but that is almost a certainty. Glen has as much as said it, and almost every reporter in town has said it. If Thibs was fired, we don't know what would have happened but here are some "ifs".

1) Rather than appointing an interim coach which is almost a necessity mid-season, we would have had the luxury of hiring a full time coach and GM in the offseason.
2) Assuming that coach would have been hired before the draft, somebody other than Thibs and Laydon would have been in charge of picking at 14 and 20. We don't know if that person would have been better or worse than Thibs' and Laydon, but I think we can venture a guess.
3) The new coach would not have been as tied to Butler, and wouldn't have let the situation go unresolved until training camp. The team would have entered training camp and the start of the season with a trade completed and a much better attitude than the one we exhibited last fall. The stench of preseason is still in the air months later.

I admit these three things are "ifs" but I think most of us would agree they are all likely...nobody could have handled the Butler situation worse than Thibs and Laydon. Maybe Rose would have left, as you suggest. But also maybe not...he wasn't exactly a hot commodity. And as others have pointed out, we have a better record this year in games he has sat out.

"I don't know if there are many ifs in my scenario." Hard not to chuckle when you say this then outline multiple ifs. Lol just giving you a hard time but seriously there are a TON of unknowns in your scenario and really most scenarios that are not what actually happens.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:It's interesting to revisit where our heads were last April in the days leading up to the finale against Denver. I was certain we were going to beat Denver that night (we were a much better team than Denver last year) and thought that was the worst possible outcome if it meant getting the 8th seed. Lip might have been the only other poster here who understood the ramifications of a Wolves win, but I don't blame him for cheering for the Wolves that night...I would have been too if I had been in the arena like him rather than watching on TV.

But not being with the crowd allowed me to be more objective, and after I realized that the other games were going the wrong way and a win meant 8th seed, I was actively cheering against the Wolves the rest of the game. Yeah it felt weird, but as I explained here, I'm in for the long haul and a Wolves loss seemed to be better for the franchise. Of course being a wolves fan means always being let down, and this time they let me down with a win.

My position hasn't changed...that win was not good for the Wolves long-term. Let's review the implications:

1) Sure, we got the playoffs, but a playoff series that we all knew would be ill-fated. I predicted we would win one game on a night where Houston just didn't care, and that's what happened. Playoff tickets are very expensive, and it just wasn't worth it.
2) Glen has as much as said it, and it's common knowledge among those in the know...Thibs would have been fired immediately after losing that Denver game. Come on guys...do you really think playing 5 playoff games was worth suffering through another half year (and agonizing off-season) of Thibodeau? I don't.
3) In addition to the 20th pick, missing the playoffs would have allowed us to keep our 14th pick that we instead had to give up to Atlanta. Look at the guys who were available at 14, and ask yourself if you would like to have one of them on our roster.

So the choice was this...beat Denver and get a playoff series in which we were destined to be destroyed, or lose to Denver and get a new coach who hopefully would have handled the Butler situation better (how could he not have?) and started the 2018-9 season better than Thibs did, plus getting an additional lottery pick. We made the playoffs and are now on the outside looking in...Denver missed the playoffs and, in addition to adding a PF who could be a star in the future (although hurt this season) is currently sitting in first place in the West.

Are you guys still happy we won that Denver game? If you could go back in time, would you be cheering for a different result?

Lots of ifs in your scenario. Im not knocking your position but for me I'm still cheering for the Wolves to win both last year and this year. Good franchises don't have to worry so much about picking a few spots higher because they missed the playoffs. That's my expectation we become a good franchise. Is it unrealistic? Maybe for the Wolves but it's what should happen. Derrick Rose likely doesn't come back in your scenario either and he has been a positive this year and COULD be one for the next couple years. Only time will tell. It's been a fun ride watching the guy play this year for the most part.

I don't know if there are many ifs in my scenario. We clearly would have had the 14th pick if we had lost that game to Denver, so that's not an if. The only "if" I see is whether Glen would have fired Thibs (and likely Laydon), but that is almost a certainty. Glen has as much as said it, and almost every reporter in town has said it. If Thibs was fired, we don't know what would have happened but here are some "ifs".

1) Rather than appointing an interim coach which is almost a necessity mid-season, we would have had the luxury of hiring a full time coach and GM in the offseason.
2) Assuming that coach would have been hired before the draft, somebody other than Thibs and Laydon would have been in charge of picking at 14 and 20. We don't know if that person would have been better or worse than Thibs' and Laydon, but I think we can venture a guess.
3) The new coach would not have been as tied to Butler, and wouldn't have let the situation go unresolved until training camp. The team would have entered training camp and the start of the season with a trade completed and a much better attitude than the one we exhibited last fall. The stench of preseason is still in the air months later.

I admit these three things are "ifs" but I think most of us would agree they are all likely...nobody could have handled the Butler situation worse than Thibs and Laydon. Maybe Rose would have left, as you suggest. But also maybe not...he wasn't exactly a hot commodity. And as others have pointed out, we have a better record this year in games he has sat out.

"I don't know if there are many ifs in my scenario." Hard not to chuckle when you say this then outline multiple ifs. Lol just giving you a hard time but seriously there are a TON of unknowns in your scenario and really most scenarios that are not what actually happens.

Hard to know how the draft would have been handled differently with the 14th as well as the 20th pick. Maybe we would have dealt the pick as inducement for a team to take Gorgui, which would have helped the team's long-term salary situation. I'm confident, however, that the Butler situation would have been handled better by anyone other than Thibodeau if only because Butler would have likely been dealt draft night before anyone knew he wanted out. As a result, he would have likely brought a better return. And we likely wouldn't have dug ourselves that early season hole when Butler was disrupting the team's performance.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:To me... based on his history... most of LST's take is wishful thinking that Thibs would be fired if they missed the playoffs last year.

Fair enough. Obviously, you really disliked the guy.

Personally, I do think there is such a thing as a losing culture... and I think being embarrassed by a 5 game 1st round loss more than missing the playoffs entirely for the 15th straight time (one of the longer streaks in NBA history) screams that not even the fanbase cares about losing.

Sure, KAT struggled offensively as he realized what the playoffs are like. I know I'd prefer for him to go through those growing pains/learning experience when the stakes are lower than down the line when a longer run is possible. Playoff basketball is a different animal entirely and teams usually have to go through the trials and tribulations a few times before really figuring things out.

That's just how it usually works.

longstrangetrip wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:To me... based on his history... most of LST's take is wishful thinking that Thibs would be fired if they missed the playoffs last year.

Fair enough. Obviously, you really disliked the guy.

Personally, I do think there is such a thing as a losing culture... and I think being embarrassed by a 5 game 1st round loss more than missing the playoffs entirely for the 15th straight time (one of the longer streaks in NBA history) screams that not even the fanbase cares about losing.

Sure, KAT struggled offensively as he realized what the playoffs are like. I know I'd prefer for him to go through those growing pains/learning experience when the stakes are lower than down the line when a longer run is possible. Playoff basketball is a different animal entirely and teams usually have to go through the trials and tribulations a few times before really figuring things out.

That's just how it usually works.

Actually just half of my take...yes, I wanted Thibs gone (and not because I disliked him, but because I...like many others... thought he was the wrong guy to coach this team), but I also really wanted that 14th pick. There were a lot of players I liked in last year's draft and it would have been nice to add one. Maybe we would have screwed up the pick, but I still place a lot of value on a lottery pick and hated to give one up last year. A cynic might argue that by keeping Thibs through the off-season and first half of this season, it pretty much guaranteed that we would get that lottery pick this year. That argument doesn't work for me...I would rather make the playoffs this year.

But I get that it's a debatable question and I also acknowledge that more here side with you on this issue. But I still see that as short-sighted thinking and can't see how a 1-4 blowout playoff series has more long-term value to a franchise than a lottery pick and removal of a negative coach. Still, it's interesting for me nonetheless to hear the arguments as to why getting a one-and-done playoff series was ultimately more valuable. Interesting, but not persuasive.