Reflections on the Wolves After 3 Games

[Monster]

A tale of 2 players.

Okogie is a guy that plays FASTER than the league at times to a fault. There is speed and athletic ability although he is a bit undersized. He is also pretty strong.

Culver plays slower but I don't think it's just because he is too slow it's also because he does it on purpose. The game against Miami he dribbles right into the paint and draws 2 and makes an easy pass to Towns. He didn't really blow past anyone just did exactly what you are supposed to do. Dane Moore posted a clip a couple of days ago of Ben Simmions running a play to set up a wide open player at the 3 point line and suggested Culver could do something similar as a big PG. yes that's probably too much BUT lets run with comparing those 2 guys a bit. Simmons is a more creative passer With more athletic ability as well and obviously bigger. So he is a Rubio while Culver is more of a Tyus. He isn't going to wow you so much as do the right stuff all the time. I don't know if you saw that the other night Doc Rivers commented that Rubio was a "Clever little fucker" Lol

I'm not REALLY saying that I KNOW Culver is going to actually be able to be a big PG BUT I think there is a chance he could do it would make him pretty valueable. I don't think the speed of the game is his problem either as a few have suggested but that is my view. I think his jumper will come around enough BUT that is a problem that is certainly concerning. Justice Winslow took a while to put it together (especially shooting the ball) and is now a pretty nice player that is still only 23.

Interesting comparison and analysis, Monster. The only thing I'd quibble with is your characterization of Okogie as a bit undersized. He has a freakishly long 7'0" wingspan. That's way long for a SG. It's even long for a SF and comparable to a number of NBA PFs. He has an 8'6 overhead reach and weighed in at 211 pounds coming out of college. Compare those number to Jarrett Culver's - 6'9.5 wingspan, 8'4.5 overhead reach and 194 weight. Culver has significantly less length than Okogie and weighed nearly 20 pounds less coming out of college. It's actually Culver who's a bit undersized.

I have a hard time seeing all-star level upside in Culver. Unlike Okogie, Culver doesn't have exceptional length or quickness. He's very thin. He's not an elite ball-handler. And he has a broken shot. He was a poor 3-point and free throw shooter as a sophomore. He does seem to have a high basketball IQ and I agree there could be purpose behind his slowness. I also think he has a slightly better handle than Okogie. If Culver can fix his shot, then I see him becoming a solid NBA player. But I don't see the quickness and ball-handling for him to be a PG and I don't see anything elite in his game that suggests a high, all-star level upside. Okogie has both freakish athleticism/quickness and freakishly long length on a very sturdy 211 pound frame. He was a solid 38% 3-point shooter as a college sophomore and was also an excellent free-throw shooter both as a sophomore and an NBA rookie. And he's already established himself as a terrific defender.

So the tale of these two players in my view is a story of the contrast between an excellent defender with the potential to be elite two-way player (Okogie) and a high IQ player with the potential to be a solid rotation guy (Culver).

You didn't get into Culver as a defender. I think he is gonna be pretty good on that end.

When I say Okogie is a little undersized I mean if he ends up having to play as a SF or switched onto guys that are big SF. There have been times he was simple too small to guard guys despite his other physical gifts. Yes I think he may be able to mitigate those but there may be times he is just too short.

I think Culver has a stronger lower body which helps him and in a different way than Okogie he plays and weirdly looks bigger. Obviously he would be a pretty large PG if he can play there.

These guys are very different players for a bunch of reasons but it kinda reminds me a little of comparing Lavine and Wiggins when they were younger. Lavine just played and Wiggins seemed to always be doing some sort of calculation. Okogie balls out and Culver is more of a calculated guy but he is gonna play hard too. People are worried because Culver hasn't done much yet and that's true but The Wolves have also got competent play out of guys like Layman and Graham so it's not like they have to run him out there for a bunch of minutes.

[Monster]

Just a quick look at the early standings and one thing that jumps out at me is we are 3-0 and Sac and NO are 0-4. Things can turn around quickly but that's a solid cushion if you are looking to be better than a couple teams this season.

[Lipoli390]

A tale of 2 players.

Okogie is a guy that plays FASTER than the league at times to a fault. There is speed and athletic ability although he is a bit undersized. He is also pretty strong.

Culver plays slower but I don't think it's just because he is too slow it's also because he does it on purpose. The game against Miami he dribbles right into the paint and draws 2 and makes an easy pass to Towns. He didn't really blow past anyone just did exactly what you are supposed to do. Dane Moore posted a clip a couple of days ago of Ben Simmions running a play to set up a wide open player at the 3 point line and suggested Culver could do something similar as a big PG. yes that's probably too much BUT lets run with comparing those 2 guys a bit. Simmons is a more creative passer With more athletic ability as well and obviously bigger. So he is a Rubio while Culver is more of a Tyus. He isn't going to wow you so much as do the right stuff all the time. I don't know if you saw that the other night Doc Rivers commented that Rubio was a "Clever little fucker" Lol

I'm not REALLY saying that I KNOW Culver is going to actually be able to be a big PG BUT I think there is a chance he could do it would make him pretty valueable. I don't think the speed of the game is his problem either as a few have suggested but that is my view. I think his jumper will come around enough BUT that is a problem that is certainly concerning. Justice Winslow took a while to put it together (especially shooting the ball) and is now a pretty nice player that is still only 23.

Interesting comparison and analysis, Monster. The only thing I'd quibble with is your characterization of Okogie as a bit undersized. He has a freakishly long 7'0" wingspan. That's way long for a SG. It's even long for a SF and comparable to a number of NBA PFs. He has an 8'6 overhead reach and weighed in at 211 pounds coming out of college. Compare those number to Jarrett Culver's - 6'9.5 wingspan, 8'4.5 overhead reach and 194 weight. Culver has significantly less length than Okogie and weighed nearly 20 pounds less coming out of college. It's actually Culver who's a bit undersized.

I have a hard time seeing all-star level upside in Culver. Unlike Okogie, Culver doesn't have exceptional length or quickness. He's very thin. He's not an elite ball-handler. And he has a broken shot. He was a poor 3-point and free throw shooter as a sophomore. He does seem to have a high basketball IQ and I agree there could be purpose behind his slowness. I also think he has a slightly better handle than Okogie. If Culver can fix his shot, then I see him becoming a solid NBA player. But I don't see the quickness and ball-handling for him to be a PG and I don't see anything elite in his game that suggests a high, all-star level upside. Okogie has both freakish athleticism/quickness and freakishly long length on a very sturdy 211 pound frame. He was a solid 38% 3-point shooter as a college sophomore and was also an excellent free-throw shooter both as a sophomore and an NBA rookie. And he's already established himself as a terrific defender.

So the tale of these two players in my view is a story of the contrast between an excellent defender with the potential to be elite two-way player (Okogie) and a high IQ player with the potential to be a solid rotation guy (Culver).

You didn't get into Culver as a defender. I think he is gonna be pretty good on that end.

When I say Okogie is a little undersized I mean if he ends up having to play as a SF or switched onto guys that are big SF. There have been times he was simple too small to guard guys despite his other physical gifts. Yes I think he may be able to mitigate those but there may be times he is just too short.

I think Culver has a stronger lower body which helps him and in a different way than Okogie he plays and weirdly looks bigger. Obviously he would be a pretty large PG if he can play there.

These guys are very different players for a bunch of reasons but it kinda reminds me a little of comparing Lavine and Wiggins when they were younger. Lavine just played and Wiggins seemed to always be doing some sort of calculation. Okogie balls out and Culver is more of a calculated guy but he is gonna play hard too. People are worried because Culver hasn't done much yet and that's true but The Wolves have also got competent play out of guys like Layman and Graham so it's not like they have to run him out there for a bunch of minutes.

Monster - Please don't compare Culver to Wiggins. :). Seriously, the Culver-Wiggins part of your comparison doesn't work for me. I get where you're coming from and I agree that Culver seems more deliberate in his play than Okogie, but thankfully Culver appears to be smart and instinctive - unlike Wiggins who clearly has poor instincts and a low basketball IQ. If Culver had Wiggins' length and athleticism, I'd be really high on him. The Okogie-LaVine comparison is better as they both appear to be fast, instinctive players. I get your point though and like your overall comparison of Okogie and Culver.

As for size, I see Okogie as a SG. At that position he's actually comparatively big based on overhead reach and wingspan. Note that height is irrelevant, especially defensively. As Kevin McHale once told a group of us, "you don't shoot, block shots, harass ball-handlers or get steals with your head; it's your hands." Okogie might be slightly undersized at the SF position, but if that's true then so are Layman and Treveon Graham. Layman has an 8'6 reach like Okogie and a smaller 6'9.25 wingspan. Graham has a slightly largely reach of 8'7 and a smaller 6'10.5 wingspan. Okogie was about 10 pounds lighter than Graham coming out of college and a couple pounds heavier than Layman.

I'd say that Okogie's overall length, combined with his 40+" vertical, elite quickness, high energy and defensive tenacity, makes him a very formidable defender against most SFs in the League. Okogie has issues, size isn't one of them. His issues are shooting consistency and learning to play more under control (or more deliberately). He's fine at SF if the Wolves want to go the small-ball route. Otherwise, he should play the SG position with a bigger wing at SF. Interestingly, neither Layman nor Graham is longer than Okogie.

Culver's size is OK for the SG position, but his size does become an issue at SF. I like the idea of him eventually playing PG. His has very good size at that position. I just question whether he's quick enough to guard that position at the NBA level. And I don't know that he has the ball-handling, passing or floor-general skills for that position. Both Culver and Okogie strike me as natural SGs. As you've noted, they have significantly different styles.

[apollotsg [enjin:6592798]]

Culver's bounce pass to Towns in the paint has been his highlight so far...and Towns didnt score. I am really hoping he does develop, especially on the defensive side. Having Okogie take on the other teams best scoring guard will give Culver the opportunity (assuming he develops) to shut down the 2nd G - I think they both easily have the wingspan and agility to stick to modern SF - not the Lebron types, I guess Covington takes that primary role.

So far offensively - we don't use a PG like we used to - there is lots of movement with people all driving into the paint and looking to pass otherwise - OR giving it to Towns and working from there. I don't think there will be a problem if Culver dribbles the ball up and passes it - shit - we have Wiggins doing that now sometimes - are you guys telling me that you trust Wiggins over Culver to dribble the ball up and pass it?

So by mid-season, I am hoping to see this kind of lineup:

PG Culver (defending the 2nd best G)
SG Okogie (defending the best G)
SF Covington (on the SF)
PF Vonleh (on the grinder PF/C)
C Towns (defending the easier of the PF/C)

Sub in Wiggins as the go-to scorer off the bench with the 2nd unit - we really don't have that, maybe he can feast on lesser defenders. If a pretend benching got him going this last game, maybe losing his starting spot will turn him around...lol

Napier, Graham, and Layman are all pretty solid all-around guys off the bench so far. Ried is someone that I hope starts contributing by midseason.

That leaves Teague, Dieng, and Wiggins as the people we need to trade - too bad we can't move them for a solid 2-way PG that can create to be our starting PG. Maybe if Wiggins continues just a little bit of improvement Rosa can get some value out of him.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Yeah, it may take some time to find the right role for Culver since he isn't an off-the-ball pure shooter ala Covington OR a balls out energy guy like Okogie. He really probably is best utilized as a primary or secondary ball handler to initiate offense. It's just really hard to throw him into that role when we are trying to win games. My hope is that he starts settling down a bit on offense, works his ass off on defense, and then Saunders starts gradually ramping up his time on the ball. We'll see.

[Monster]

A tale of 2 players.

Okogie is a guy that plays FASTER than the league at times to a fault. There is speed and athletic ability although he is a bit undersized. He is also pretty strong.

Culver plays slower but I don't think it's just because he is too slow it's also because he does it on purpose. The game against Miami he dribbles right into the paint and draws 2 and makes an easy pass to Towns. He didn't really blow past anyone just did exactly what you are supposed to do. Dane Moore posted a clip a couple of days ago of Ben Simmions running a play to set up a wide open player at the 3 point line and suggested Culver could do something similar as a big PG. yes that's probably too much BUT lets run with comparing those 2 guys a bit. Simmons is a more creative passer With more athletic ability as well and obviously bigger. So he is a Rubio while Culver is more of a Tyus. He isn't going to wow you so much as do the right stuff all the time. I don't know if you saw that the other night Doc Rivers commented that Rubio was a "Clever little fucker" Lol

I'm not REALLY saying that I KNOW Culver is going to actually be able to be a big PG BUT I think there is a chance he could do it would make him pretty valueable. I don't think the speed of the game is his problem either as a few have suggested but that is my view. I think his jumper will come around enough BUT that is a problem that is certainly concerning. Justice Winslow took a while to put it together (especially shooting the ball) and is now a pretty nice player that is still only 23.

Interesting comparison and analysis, Monster. The only thing I'd quibble with is your characterization of Okogie as a bit undersized. He has a freakishly long 7'0" wingspan. That's way long for a SG. It's even long for a SF and comparable to a number of NBA PFs. He has an 8'6 overhead reach and weighed in at 211 pounds coming out of college. Compare those number to Jarrett Culver's - 6'9.5 wingspan, 8'4.5 overhead reach and 194 weight. Culver has significantly less length than Okogie and weighed nearly 20 pounds less coming out of college. It's actually Culver who's a bit undersized.

I have a hard time seeing all-star level upside in Culver. Unlike Okogie, Culver doesn't have exceptional length or quickness. He's very thin. He's not an elite ball-handler. And he has a broken shot. He was a poor 3-point and free throw shooter as a sophomore. He does seem to have a high basketball IQ and I agree there could be purpose behind his slowness. I also think he has a slightly better handle than Okogie. If Culver can fix his shot, then I see him becoming a solid NBA player. But I don't see the quickness and ball-handling for him to be a PG and I don't see anything elite in his game that suggests a high, all-star level upside. Okogie has both freakish athleticism/quickness and freakishly long length on a very sturdy 211 pound frame. He was a solid 38% 3-point shooter as a college sophomore and was also an excellent free-throw shooter both as a sophomore and an NBA rookie. And he's already established himself as a terrific defender.

So the tale of these two players in my view is a story of the contrast between an excellent defender with the potential to be elite two-way player (Okogie) and a high IQ player with the potential to be a solid rotation guy (Culver).

You didn't get into Culver as a defender. I think he is gonna be pretty good on that end.

When I say Okogie is a little undersized I mean if he ends up having to play as a SF or switched onto guys that are big SF. There have been times he was simple too small to guard guys despite his other physical gifts. Yes I think he may be able to mitigate those but there may be times he is just too short.

I think Culver has a stronger lower body which helps him and in a different way than Okogie he plays and weirdly looks bigger. Obviously he would be a pretty large PG if he can play there.

These guys are very different players for a bunch of reasons but it kinda reminds me a little of comparing Lavine and Wiggins when they were younger. Lavine just played and Wiggins seemed to always be doing some sort of calculation. Okogie balls out and Culver is more of a calculated guy but he is gonna play hard too. People are worried because Culver hasn't done much yet and that's true but The Wolves have also got competent play out of guys like Layman and Graham so it's not like they have to run him out there for a bunch of minutes.

Monster - Please don't compare Culver to Wiggins. :). Seriously, the Culver-Wiggins part of your comparison doesn't work for me. I get where you're coming from and I agree that Culver seems more deliberate in his play than Okogie, but thankfully Culver appears to be smart and instinctive - unlike Wiggins who clearly has poor instincts and a low basketball IQ. If Culver had Wiggins' length and athleticism, I'd be really high on him. The Okogie-LaVine comparison is better as they both appear to be fast, instinctive players. I get your point though and like your overall comparison of Okogie and Culver.

As for size, I see Okogie as a SG. At that position he's actually comparatively big based on overhead reach and wingspan. Note that height is irrelevant, especially defensively. As Kevin McHale once told a group of us, "you don't shoot, block shots, harass ball-handlers or get steals with your head; it's your hands." Okogie might be slightly undersized at the SF position, but if that's true then so are Layman and Treveon Graham. Layman has an 8'6 reach like Okogie and a smaller 6'9.25 wingspan. Graham has a slightly largely reach of 8'7 and a smaller 6'10.5 wingspan. Okogie was about 10 pounds lighter than Graham coming out of college and a couple pounds heavier than Layman.

I'd say that Okogie's overall length, combined with his 40+" vertical, elite quickness, high energy and defensive tenacity, makes him a very formidable defender against most SFs in the League. Okogie has issues, size isn't one of them. His issues are shooting consistency and learning to play more under control (or more deliberately). He's fine at SF if the Wolves want to go the small-ball route. Otherwise, he should play the SG position with a bigger wing at SF. Interestingly, neither Layman nor Graham is longer than Okogie.

Culver's size is OK for the SG position, but his size does become an issue at SF. I like the idea of him eventually playing PG. His has very good size at that position. I just question whether he's quick enough to guard that position at the NBA level. And I don't know that he has the ball-handling, passing or floor-general skills for that position. Both Culver and Okogie strike me as natural SGs. As you've noted, they have significantly different styles.

I think it's obvious my comparisons to the young players are very flawed but you did seem to get my point which I am thankful for. :) I did also realize I didn't fully finish some of my thinking of my comp so I will add that here.

Early on Wiggins I think clearly had the edge in BBIQ over Lavine even defensively. Especially when Wiggins was in Isolation especially on the post ups and facing up against guys you could see him multiple times during the game reading the defense and then reacting and doing something positive. Wiggins had a clear advantage finishing at the rim too Lavine tended to shy away from using anything other than a right hand finish. Finishing around the rim was one thing that really raised Lavine's potential.

One of the things that sold me on Wiggins his rookie year was his body control he always seemed to be able to turn in the air and square his body up to what we angle he needed to finish. Where did that go? That might be the strangest thing missing from his game now. He still finishes around the rim ok but it's too much finesse and that also is part of what takes him away from getting fouls. It's like he has tried to become Al Jefferson or something.

As time went on though it felt like the thinking of the game was a negative for Wiggins and the just ball out along with some progress mentally has made Lavine look better. Okogie is raw in some ways And just balls out. but also has some instincts obviously on the defensive end but he has some nice little instincts as a passer and looking to draw fouls. In comparison hopefully Culver's mental approach to the game is a strength offensively not a hindrance. Only time will tell. Like Cam said in the Herro thread part of the equation with Culver is banking on him developing because of his hard work character and being self made. One thing that hasn't been mentioned much was brought up by Dane and Charlie on Dane Moore's podcast. This is Culver's fist time being totally away from home. That might have some effect even with this organization that is putting forth a big family atmosphere. These players are people.