Minnesota Sports Forum

Can someone also explain to me why NO's is thought of so highly? They lost Cousins and Rondo. They have AD, Mirotic, Holiday and scrubs outside of maybe Randle who will be backing up AD because AD hates playing Center. AD never plays a full 82 and Holiday outside of last year and very early in his career misses a bunch of time. I really just don't understand how they can be thought of as a better team than us. We beat them every time we played them last year and they got worse. I just think we are getting heavily disrespected and teams with one really good player like LAL and NO are getting bumps because of that one guy when this conference is stacked with teams with multiple good players. You can't get away with that. Steph, Klay, KD, Draymond. CP3 & Harden. Mitchell & Gobert. Lillard & CJ. Butler & Towns. Westbrook & PG13. Hell even DeRozan & LA. I just really don't see it in a conference this stacked that one all-star teams will be anywhere but at the bottom fighting for 7/8.

khans2k5 wrote:Can someone also explain to me why NO's is thought of so highly? They lost Cousins and Rondo. They have AD, Mirotic, Holiday and scrubs outside of maybe Randle who will be backing up AD because AD hates playing Center. AD never plays a full 82 and Holiday outside of last year and very early in his career misses a bunch of time. I really just don't understand how they can be thought of as a better team than us. We beat them every time we played them last year and they got worse. I just think we are getting heavily disrespected and teams with one really good player like LAL and NO are getting bumps because of that one guy when this conference is stacked with teams with multiple good players. You can't get away with that. Steph, Klay, KD, Draymond. CP3 & Harden. Mitchell & Gobert. Lillard & CJ. Butler & Towns. Westbrook & PG13. Hell even DeRozan & LA. I just really don't see it in a conference this stacked that one all-star teams will be anywhere but at the bottom fighting for 7/8.

I don't really get that one either. Losing Rondo is pretty big the downgrade to Elfris Payten might be significant there. They do have Mirotic for an entire season and Randle really compliments AD and Mirotic well. If Solomon Hill is healthy and can contribute that will help. I don't get how that roster which does make sense is better than the Wolves but maybe Vegas just is assuming everyone this going to go bad for the Wolves or something. A bunch of these teams are gonna be so close a game or 2 prediction one way or another isn't something I am too worked up about.

monsterpile wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Can someone also explain to me why NO's is thought of so highly? They lost Cousins and Rondo. They have AD, Mirotic, Holiday and scrubs outside of maybe Randle who will be backing up AD because AD hates playing Center. AD never plays a full 82 and Holiday outside of last year and very early in his career misses a bunch of time. I really just don't understand how they can be thought of as a better team than us. We beat them every time we played them last year and they got worse. I just think we are getting heavily disrespected and teams with one really good player like LAL and NO are getting bumps because of that one guy when this conference is stacked with teams with multiple good players. You can't get away with that. Steph, Klay, KD, Draymond. CP3 & Harden. Mitchell & Gobert. Lillard & CJ. Butler & Towns. Westbrook & PG13. Hell even DeRozan & LA. I just really don't see it in a conference this stacked that one all-star teams will be anywhere but at the bottom fighting for 7/8.

I don't really get that one either. Losing Rondo is pretty big the downgrade to Elfris Payten might be significant there. They do have Mirotic for an entire season and Randle really compliments AD and Mirotic well. If Solomon Hill is healthy and can contribute that will help. I don't get how that roster which does make sense is better than the Wolves but maybe Vegas just is assuming everyone this going to go bad for the Wolves or something. A bunch of these teams are gonna be so close a game or 2 prediction one way or another isn't something I am too worked up about.

It's because they lost Cousins that Vegas is so high on the Pellies...Cousins is one of those guys who looks good on paper, but not in the standings. NO was an average team before Cousins got hurt, then finished the season 20-8 after he was done. Then they capped off the strong finish with a 4-0 sweep of Portland in the playoffs. Yes, losing Rondo hurts. But a full season of Mitotic and no Cousins more than makes up for that loss. I see them easily going over the 45.5 total.

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Can someone tell me how Lebron can barely scrape out 50 wins last year in the East only to see a game and a half drop moving to the West? I would pound the under on the Lakers if I had the extra cash.

Cleveland didn't play defense, the Lakers do. Walton is a way better coach than Lue. Also, don't be surprised to see a guy like Kuzma or Hart suddenly become a big factor for them.

A very young Lakers team went 35 - 47 last season, including 21 - 21 in the 2nd half of the season. Offensively, it was a mixed bag at best... defensively, they were borderline solid... finishing 12th in Def Rating.

Lonzo Ball missed 30 games.
Ingram missed 23 games.
Josh Hart missed 19 games.

And now the team added LeBron James. I wouldn't put too much stock in Cleveland's record last season. That team, in that conference... playoff seeding didn't matter. Every team, and every player in the L knew that. They sleepwalked through the season.

A younger team that hasn't tasted 3 straight cakewalks to the Finals could be a hungrier team. I have no idea how Rondo and Stephenson fit in other than that both are serviceable vets when put in favorable situations. The one thing I do know for certain is that LeBron James is a freak of nature.

I STILL don't care for him. But I wouldn't bet against him in any way at this point. He's pretty damn remarkable.

And Lebron played the full 82 last year which he had never done and tells you how much every game mattered to that team. That was the best that Cleveland team could have done and it got them 50. I get that he's a great player. He's now in a conference where most teams have at least 2 great players to his one and as great as he is, he alone isn't worth CP3 and Harden or Steph and KD or even Butler and Towns.

To be fair... LeBron James playing 82 games undoubtedly shows more about how that stat mattered to him... than what it meant for the team.

Cleveland had a meh type of team as it was, but I thought it was pretty much universally accepted that they sorta just skated through the regular season. There wasn't much urgency as they didn't seem to care about seeding. Let's just agree to disagree on this one.

We'll see how this plays out. The Lakers have a very very odd team. And they seem to have made a very definitive decision to go in the opposite direction of other James teams. For example, they could have easily had Brooke Lopez as a floor-spacing big. Instead, they opted for the mercurial and goofy and only rim-running Javale McGee.

Stephenson is an overdribbler who doesn't shoot well from deep. Rondo is obviously not known for shooting. Should be interesting...

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Can someone also explain to me why NO's is thought of so highly? They lost Cousins and Rondo. They have AD, Mirotic, Holiday and scrubs outside of maybe Randle who will be backing up AD because AD hates playing Center. AD never plays a full 82 and Holiday outside of last year and very early in his career misses a bunch of time. I really just don't understand how they can be thought of as a better team than us. We beat them every time we played them last year and they got worse. I just think we are getting heavily disrespected and teams with one really good player like LAL and NO are getting bumps because of that one guy when this conference is stacked with teams with multiple good players. You can't get away with that. Steph, Klay, KD, Draymond. CP3 & Harden. Mitchell & Gobert. Lillard & CJ. Butler & Towns. Westbrook & PG13. Hell even DeRozan & LA. I just really don't see it in a conference this stacked that one all-star teams will be anywhere but at the bottom fighting for 7/8.

I don't really get that one either. Losing Rondo is pretty big the downgrade to Elfris Payten might be significant there. They do have Mirotic for an entire season and Randle really compliments AD and Mirotic well. If Solomon Hill is healthy and can contribute that will help. I don't get how that roster which does make sense is better than the Wolves but maybe Vegas just is assuming everyone this going to go bad for the Wolves or something. A bunch of these teams are gonna be so close a game or 2 prediction one way or another isn't something I am too worked up about.

It's because they lost Cousins that Vegas is so high on the Pellies...Cousins is one of those guys who looks good on paper, but not in the standings. NO was an average team before Cousins got hurt, then finished the season 20-8 after he was done. Then they capped off the strong finish with a 4-0 sweep of Portland in the playoffs. Yes, losing Rondo hurts. But a full season of Mitotic and no Cousins more than makes up for that loss. I see them easily going over the 45.5 total.

Agree with a lot of this... mostly about Cousins. He's the definition of an NBA dog.

He's lazy. And selfish. And the Pelicans sure did seem to thrive in his absence. Obviously, Holiday's/Davis' health are everything to this team. Otherwise, I don't see why Holiday would take a significant step back. He was pining to play off the ball more... so maybe it's not a coincidence that he really thrived in that role... and especially after Rondo started playing.

Rondo still has his moments, but it's not vintage Rondo. Meanwhile, Elfrid Payton brings some Rondo-like skills to the table. Granted, we haven't seen what Payton can do on a good team yet. And the Magic won significantly more games with DJ Augustin starting over him for the past couple of years. But there could be something there. Like Rondo, he's limited by his perimeter shooting, but he brings some other things to the table.

The other big question mark for the Pelicans will be Julius Randle. The guy was a beast the last couple of months in LA. And he's improved significantly each of his first four seasons in the league. Why would he suddenly hit a wall? And even if he does... and only as good as what we saw last year in LA... that's pretty damn good. He was a plus player statistically on both sides of the court.

Like with all the teams in the West... health will decide a lot of things.

But New Orleans has two excellent (two-way) players... with one of them being a top 5 talent... and some complementary pieces. They could be pretty damn good.

I've seen a couple folks mention how complementary Randle is to Davis. How is that? It seems to me that both occupy the same space on the floor, generally preferring to face up their guy and go to work from the mid-range and then around the basket. Davis is the better shooter, but he's much more effective going down hill and in the paint. Randle is all about going down hill and bullying his way into the paint. They will be a handful to guard, but I'm not sure 1+1 is equal to or greater than 2 in this case.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Can someone tell me how Lebron can barely scrape out 50 wins last year in the East only to see a game and a half drop moving to the West? I would pound the under on the Lakers if I had the extra cash.

Cleveland didn't play defense, the Lakers do. Walton is a way better coach than Lue. Also, don't be surprised to see a guy like Kuzma or Hart suddenly become a big factor for them.

A very young Lakers team went 35 - 47 last season, including 21 - 21 in the 2nd half of the season. Offensively, it was a mixed bag at best... defensively, they were borderline solid... finishing 12th in Def Rating.

Lonzo Ball missed 30 games.
Ingram missed 23 games.
Josh Hart missed 19 games.

And now the team added LeBron James. I wouldn't put too much stock in Cleveland's record last season. That team, in that conference... playoff seeding didn't matter. Every team, and every player in the L knew that. They sleepwalked through the season.

A younger team that hasn't tasted 3 straight cakewalks to the Finals could be a hungrier team. I have no idea how Rondo and Stephenson fit in other than that both are serviceable vets when put in favorable situations. The one thing I do know for certain is that LeBron James is a freak of nature.

I STILL don't care for him. But I wouldn't bet against him in any way at this point. He's pretty damn remarkable.

And Lebron played the full 82 last year which he had never done and tells you how much every game mattered to that team. That was the best that Cleveland team could have done and it got them 50. I get that he's a great player. He's now in a conference where most teams have at least 2 great players to his one and as great as he is, he alone isn't worth CP3 and Harden or Steph and KD or even Butler and Towns.

To be fair... LeBron James playing 82 games undoubtedly shows more about how that stat mattered to him... than what it meant for the team.

Cleveland had a meh type of team as it was, but I thought it was pretty much universally accepted that they sorta just skated through the regular season. There wasn't much urgency as they didn't seem to care about seeding. Let's just agree to disagree on this one.

We'll see how this plays out. The Lakers have a very very odd team. And they seem to have made a very definitive decision to go in the opposite direction of other James teams. For example, they could have easily had Brooke Lopez as a floor-spacing big. Instead, they opted for the mercurial and goofy and only rim-running Javale McGee.

Stephenson is an overdribbler who doesn't shoot well from deep. Rondo is obviously not known for shooting. Should be interesting...

Yes, some of the new signings are head-scratchers (Stephenson and Rondo for example), but I think some of the existing young guys that can shoot will thrive with James in the fold - Kuzma, Hart, and Ingram are going to have a lot more good looks. I think one of them breaks out in a big way this season.

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Can someone tell me how Lebron can barely scrape out 50 wins last year in the East only to see a game and a half drop moving to the West? I would pound the under on the Lakers if I had the extra cash.

Cleveland didn't play defense, the Lakers do. Walton is a way better coach than Lue. Also, don't be surprised to see a guy like Kuzma or Hart suddenly become a big factor for them.

A very young Lakers team went 35 - 47 last season, including 21 - 21 in the 2nd half of the season. Offensively, it was a mixed bag at best... defensively, they were borderline solid... finishing 12th in Def Rating.

Lonzo Ball missed 30 games.
Ingram missed 23 games.
Josh Hart missed 19 games.

And now the team added LeBron James. I wouldn't put too much stock in Cleveland's record last season. That team, in that conference... playoff seeding didn't matter. Every team, and every player in the L knew that. They sleepwalked through the season.

A younger team that hasn't tasted 3 straight cakewalks to the Finals could be a hungrier team. I have no idea how Rondo and Stephenson fit in other than that both are serviceable vets when put in favorable situations. The one thing I do know for certain is that LeBron James is a freak of nature.

I STILL don't care for him. But I wouldn't bet against him in any way at this point. He's pretty damn remarkable.

And Lebron played the full 82 last year which he had never done and tells you how much every game mattered to that team. That was the best that Cleveland team could have done and it got them 50. I get that he's a great player. He's now in a conference where most teams have at least 2 great players to his one and as great as he is, he alone isn't worth CP3 and Harden or Steph and KD or even Butler and Towns.

To be fair... LeBron James playing 82 games undoubtedly shows more about how that stat mattered to him... than what it meant for the team.

Cleveland had a meh type of team as it was, but I thought it was pretty much universally accepted that they sorta just skated through the regular season. There wasn't much urgency as they didn't seem to care about seeding. Let's just agree to disagree on this one.

We'll see how this plays out. The Lakers have a very very odd team. And they seem to have made a very definitive decision to go in the opposite direction of other James teams. For example, they could have easily had Brooke Lopez as a floor-spacing big. Instead, they opted for the mercurial and goofy and only rim-running Javale McGee.

Stephenson is an overdribbler who doesn't shoot well from deep. Rondo is obviously not known for shooting. Should be interesting...

Yes, some of the new signings are head-scratchers (Stephenson and Rondo for example), but I think some of the existing young guys that can shoot will thrive with James in the fold - Kuzma, Hart, and Ingram are going to have a lot more good looks. I think one of them breaks out in a big way this season.

Those guys are going to get open looks but Hart is basicallythe only one of the players mentioned that doesn't like to have the ball in his hands. I think Ingram is the guy most poised to have a breakout. Lonzo Ball was a plus defender as a rookie. That's kind of a big deal espcially with his size.

Q12543 wrote:I've seen a couple folks mention how complementary Randle is to Davis. How is that? It seems to me that both occupy the same space on the floor, generally preferring to face up their guy and go to work from the mid-range and then around the basket. Davis is the better shooter, but he's much more effective going down hill and in the paint. Randle is all about going down hill and bullying his way into the paint. They will be a handful to guard, but I'm not sure 1+1 is equal to or greater than 2 in this case.

Q I think the main reason Randle works with the other 2 guys is he likes to pass and both Davis and Mirotic can hit shots. The other way he compliments them is he is a guy that is going to play tough and might end up matching up against centers. Neither of the other 2 seem interested in that. You make a good point about some overlap with Randle and AD but depending on how they rotate these guys they may not share the floor a ton. Also some of the pelican's wing players are basically just complimentary guys so having a ball handler in the big rotation could be helpful. In some ways Randle is a similar player to Cousins only smaller less talented but might play with an edge the whole time. He is still what like 23 there is possible upside for him yet. I think there is potential there for teams to really struggle guarding both of those guys. If you put a smaller player on Randle he could just beat them up. Bigger guy he may be too quick and AD is tough no matter what. The bottom line is that if Randle is something like the player we saw for the Lakers in a pretty solid stretch of games last year he is a pretty good player and that's gonna help that team and AD.

Edit: They just added Okafor (low risk move) so will they keep both Okafors?

Monster, I'm not sure I mind Davis hanging around the perimeter and shooting jumpers. I'd be OK with that versus the other damage he can impose when allowed to roam freely in the paint with a bunch of shooters around him. I see the two as being good together, but it's not a perfect match in terms of skill sets. Neither can space the floor that much and both do best when given free reign in the paint. I do agree they could have the upper hand against teams that go small ball against them.