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Re: Loul Deng
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:49 pm
by WildWolf2813
KiwiMatt wrote:I'm actually ok with the signing of Luol Deng. I believe he can still contribute and I love the locker room presence he will bring. He's a professional and hopefully its rubs off on our young guys like Wiggins, KAT and KBD.
At the end of day Rose and Deng are on min 1 year deals. There's no risk, and at least some potential reward in these guys being able to contribute on and off the court.
The fact that we're hoping mentorship rubs off on two guys, one on a max deal and one who's about to step into one, is damaging. They shouldn't be the ones who need it at this stage. The ones who need it won't be here half the time. They'll be in Iowa.
If Deng plays, given how Thibs plays the starting lineup, it's almost certainly at the expense of a better player. It would be nice if the starters' PT were cut back a bit and there was a bit more variety in the lineups, but it's futile to ask Thibs to do that now.
Re: Loul Deng
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:33 pm
by WildWolf2813
monsterpile wrote:Every time Thibs has brought in a former Bulls player there has been a negative reaction. Meanwhile for each individual player it seems like the move seems arguably justified in hindsight.
Butler: We gave up too much. Last season although he only played 59 games he was clearly the wolves best player and had his most efficient season of his career.
Taj: Wasn't worth the money some people said he was too old and was cooked. Played like a legit starter this year. Patterson the guy that was supposed to be a better signing didn't do much for OKC.
Aaron Brooks: This guy is gonna take away minutes from Tyus. He was the 3rd PG for a team that likely needed a vet in case Tyus wasn't ready. Tyus was up to the task and Brooks stayed mostly planted on the bench.
Rose: Has nothing left why sign this guy? Has a couple nice regular season games and then has a very productive playoffs.
So now we are here with Deng. So far it seems like the guys Thibs has brought in that played with him for the Bulls have worked out ok so far. Maybe Deng will be the obvious misstep and he simply can't play. Maybe the guys mentioned above don't work out this season. Deng is the oldest former Thibs player brought in and he is 33. This is a vet min guy that used to be a quality 2 way starter a couple years ago. Some of the other guys we could sign were never quality 2 way starters. This seems like a reasonable gamble.
As for the players Thibs inherited and was supposed to take them to the next level...
That's the problem. He's bringing in his guys as a way to mask the fact that he had a young group of guys that most people loved yet he can't get much out of them, to the point where most of them are gone and two of the holdovers are on bloated deals where they'll never reach expectations (Dieng and Wiggins). For all of this, if there wasn't a coach or GM who could get something more out of the young talent that was here, then we've been fooled from day 1 of this re-re-rebuild and that really sucks, because if this was the intention, we didn't have to wait 14 years to piecemeal a team filled with aging vets to eke out an 8th seed. The fans didn't want that because they wanted more hope for the bigger picture, and some of us feel like that's no longer viable.
Re: Loul Deng
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:50 pm
by bleedspeed
WW2813 - Well said.
Re: Loul Deng
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:22 pm
by KiwiMatt
A month ago our bench was looking like one of the weakest in the league. Now it doesn't look too bad.
Teague / Jones
Butler / Rose / Okogie
Wiggins / Nunally / Bates-Diop
Gibson / Tolliver / Deng
Towns / Dieng / Patton
2 way = Williams and Terrell (both guards)
It will be interesting to see how Thibs narrows this down to his tradition 9/10 man rotation.
Re: Loul Deng
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:53 pm
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
KiwiMatt wrote:A month ago our bench was looking like one of the weakest in the league. Now it doesn't look too bad.
Teague / Jones
Butler / Rose / Okogie
Wiggins / Nunally / Bates-Diop
Gibson / Tolliver / Deng
Towns / Dieng / Patton
2 way = Williams and Terrell (both guards)
It will be interesting to see how Thibs narrows this down to his tradition 9/10 man rotation.
I don't know....every season seemingly lots of folks here claim our bench is going to be good and then it ends up being a problem. I honestly don't know if this bench will be good or not. Tyus and Tolliver I feel pretty good about, but otherwise, there are a lot of question marks. Rose has been a trainwreck the last few years - he could be as bad as Jamaal Crawford was for us last year. Nunnally was a good signing on paper, but the NBA is different from Euroleague. Dieng was awful last year. Deng basically hasn't played in two seasons. The other guys are greenhorns - rookies almost always suck....especially Minnesota rookies.
Re: Loul Deng
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:26 pm
by worldK
1 effect this signing will make is that our 2 rookies and Patton are guaranteed to not get any minutes this season.
WIg/taj/towns/teague/jimmy are the starters.
Tyus has been promised bigger minutes by thibs. Tolliver will play. Dieng and his 16m contract will get the backup center minutes. Rose will play guaranteed. That makes 9 guys. 1 of nunnaly or deng will get spot minutes if any as the 10th guy and the other will get dnpcd along with patton, josh and kbd. The bench improves as it gets deeper but the consequence is that the rookies and patton are not going to get minutes.
Re: Loul Deng
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:30 pm
by KG4Ever
KiwiMatt wrote:A month ago our bench was looking like one of the weakest in the league. Now it doesn't look too bad.
Teague / Jones
Butler / Rose / Okogie
Wiggins / Nunally / Bates-Diop
Gibson / Tolliver / Deng
Towns / Dieng / Patton
2 way = Williams and Terrell (both guards)
It will be interesting to see how Thibs narrows this down to his tradition 9/10 man rotation.
I would suspect Patton, Okogie and KDB are, barring injuries, fixtures at the end of the bench and Nunally in all likelihood will get less PT than Deng and Tolliver.
Re: Loul Deng
Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:40 am
by MikkeMan
Q12543 wrote:
I don't know....every season seemingly lots of folks here claim our bench is going to be good and then it ends up being a problem. I honestly don't know if this bench will be good or not. Tyus and Tolliver I feel pretty good about, but otherwise, there are a lot of question marks. Rose has been a trainwreck the last few years - he could be as bad as Jamaal Crawford was for us last year. Nunnally was a good signing on paper, but the NBA is different from Euroleague. Dieng was awful last year. Deng basically hasn't played in two seasons. The other guys are greenhorns - rookies almost always suck....especially Minnesota rookies.
Deng started in 49 games and played 1486 minutes in his first season with Lakers, which is more minutes than anyone except Crawford got last year from Wolves bench players. Even tough he was bad compared to his 18 million salary, he still posted positive plus/minus numbers that season.
The thing that I like in Wolves bench is that they have some shooters in Tolliver and Nunnally that will improve effectiveness of Rose a lot. Unlike Crawford, Rose has in last couple of year always attacked the basket. During last two years more than 40% of his shot attempts have been within 3 feet from basket. Having some outside shooter playing with him will make him much more efficient finisher in his drives. Vice versa Rose's drive and dish ability should get some open looks for Tolliver and Nunnally.
Re: Loul Deng
Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:38 am
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
Mikkeman wrote:Q12543 wrote:
I don't know....every season seemingly lots of folks here claim our bench is going to be good and then it ends up being a problem. I honestly don't know if this bench will be good or not. Tyus and Tolliver I feel pretty good about, but otherwise, there are a lot of question marks. Rose has been a trainwreck the last few years - he could be as bad as Jamaal Crawford was for us last year. Nunnally was a good signing on paper, but the NBA is different from Euroleague. Dieng was awful last year. Deng basically hasn't played in two seasons. The other guys are greenhorns - rookies almost always suck....especially Minnesota rookies.
Deng started in 49 games and played 1486 minutes in his first season with Lakers, which is more minutes than anyone except Crawford got last year from Wolves bench players. Even tough he was bad compared to his 18 million salary, he still posted positive plus/minus numbers that season.
The thing that I like in Wolves bench is that they have some shooters in Tolliver and Nunnally that will improve effectiveness of Rose a lot. Unlike Crawford, Rose has in last couple of year always attacked the basket. During last two years more than 40% of his shot attempts have been within 3 feet from basket.
Having some outside shooter playing with him will make him much more efficient finisher in his drives. Vice versa Rose's drive and dish ability should get some open looks for Tolliver and Nunnally.
Ugh, my fear is just that with our bench....it becomes a Rose-centric isofest. Even when he was good, he wasn't an efficient scorer by today's standards. Thibs can't help but play him because the bench doesn't have other shot creators and Thibs lacks the imagination to create good shots with player and ball movement.
I like the Tolliver and Nunnally signings too, but I would feel much better about our bench if Derrick Rose never saw the light day and we had someone like Teague as our 6th man shot creator. Jones is a better fit with the starters anyway....
Re: Loul Deng
Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:02 am
by Monster
Q12543 wrote:Mikkeman wrote:Q12543 wrote:
I don't know....every season seemingly lots of folks here claim our bench is going to be good and then it ends up being a problem. I honestly don't know if this bench will be good or not. Tyus and Tolliver I feel pretty good about, but otherwise, there are a lot of question marks. Rose has been a trainwreck the last few years - he could be as bad as Jamaal Crawford was for us last year. Nunnally was a good signing on paper, but the NBA is different from Euroleague. Dieng was awful last year. Deng basically hasn't played in two seasons. The other guys are greenhorns - rookies almost always suck....especially Minnesota rookies.
Deng started in 49 games and played 1486 minutes in his first season with Lakers, which is more minutes than anyone except Crawford got last year from Wolves bench players. Even tough he was bad compared to his 18 million salary, he still posted positive plus/minus numbers that season.
The thing that I like in Wolves bench is that they have some shooters in Tolliver and Nunnally that will improve effectiveness of Rose a lot. Unlike Crawford, Rose has in last couple of year always attacked the basket. During last two years more than 40% of his shot attempts have been within 3 feet from basket.
Having some outside shooter playing with him will make him much more efficient finisher in his drives. Vice versa Rose's drive and dish ability should get some open looks for Tolliver and Nunnally.
Ugh, my fear is just that with our bench....it becomes a Rose-centric isofest. Even when he was good, he wasn't an efficient scorer by today's standards. Thibs can't help but play him because the bench doesn't have other shot creators and Thibs lacks the imagination to create good shots with player and ball movement.
I like the Tolliver and Nunnally signings too, but I would feel much better about our bench if Derrick Rose never saw the light day and we had someone like Teague as our 6th man shot creator. Jones is a better fit with the starters anyway....
Dane Moore is a guy I've been paying more attention to his work and started following him recently. He also has a podcast and on there it was discussed how Rose last season was adjusting to trying to fit in and not be the man anymore. It was an interesting angle and it was put in a way I hadn't quite considered before. I feel hopeful in the exact way Mikkeman laid out but Q's scenario is very possible too. Rose is a wildcard and is the one big upside play that Thibs and Layden have done this offseason where every other move seems like one that can fit into the roster (and quite frankly almost any roster).