Camden wrote:VORP, BPM, WS/48, PER... LaVine holds the major advanced statistics (that we frequently go to) in his favor this season. There's not much that Wiggins has been clearly better at and that matches what I've seen on the floor.
Good stuff, Cam...thanks for that. Very good support for Zach I have to admit. I'm swayed, but still not convinced that he is not better off the bench...and the one stat I look at is ultimately the most important one: the scoreboard. At the end of the day you win by scoring more points than your opponent, and Zach is the second worse on the team by that measure. I continue to think he could be a positive plus/minus monster if he were put in a super sub role.
To be clear, I don't think a decision needs to be made on either guy right now. It's not clear to me who I'd pick to move, as Cam makes a great case for Zach LaVine.
But these guys seem to have too much in common: SG as best position, not a lot of "do shit" stats, mediocre defenders.
I just think once Thibs has a full season to evaluate things, he may have to swap one of these guys out in order to put together the type of team he envisions. It's not as much about getting rid of trash as it is trading one of our treasures for someone else's treasure at a different position, as I think both hold a high amount of value around the league.
Monster, here's why I think Wig gets to move to SG. While he can become a legit SF, he doesn't rebound well enough to be one now...rebounding is a core skill good forwards need to have, and Wig has ranked in the bottom 10% of forwards throughout his career. Second, he has looked dominant on both ends of the court generally when given a chance to play SG...his length gives him a huge advantage. Finally, Zach's on-off number struggles are well-documented here...his defensive lapses and especially his tendency to gamble are really hurting us, and despite his terrific offense, are a real reason for his dreadful on-offs. Why not give the kid a chance to hone his defensive skills against reserve SG's rather continuing to see him struggle guarding better SGs?
How many more rebounds is enough for Wiggins to get so people are ok with him in that area? Why can't Wiggins and Lavine play against the competition they are likely to be facing when they will be 23-33 years old or whatever? Have them take their lumps now. Would you be ok with Gordon Hayward as your SF or are his career rebounding numbers too terrible for you?
I think part of the problem is that BOTH of them are subpar rebounders right now.
Lavine has been great offensively but is the worst defender getting significant mintutes by a long shot. I'm not sure you can say he is taking to Thibs coaching if he still can't defend.
Wiggins gives us a better look at the 2 but we don't have the proper piece to move into the 3. Our roster still isn't there. I'd rather not move Zach but he could conciveably get us a legitimate star back in a package. I agree with Cam that I don't think Thibs is willing to do that yet either. I really don't want to be in a hurry to move the young pieces either. Our holes are still at the 1 and the 4. Ideally we address that without giving up Towns, Wiggins or Lavine.
One thing I try to remember is that fans tend to blame their best players for all of a team's problems. I remember when the reason the Wolves couldn't get out of the first round was because KG didn't have a post game. In hindsight, I think we can all agree it was because the surrounding roster was mostly terrible.
I think the current Wolves are in the same situation. Zach, Wiggins, and Towns all have their flaws. They need to improve defensively and with their rebounding. But IMO the problem is more the rest of the roster.
We have been getting very uneven play from the PG position. Dieng is decent but doesn't scare anyone and doesn't defend the rim as much as you'd think. Beyond that the cupboard is really bare in terms of NBA-ready players. We all enjoy learning about our young guys and seeing them get better. But when you compare our roster and Utah's in terms of NBA-level play it is no contest.
Here's what I predict happens moving forward:
* Ricky's role continues to diminish and he is traded by early January.
* Ditto for Shabazz
* Trades return some veterans who can immediately contribute off the bench.
* Dunn finally figures things out enough for Thibs to trust him as the starter with Tyus getting decent backup minutes.
* Team slowly gets better at Thibs' defensive system and gets to middle of the pack by end of the season.
WIleECoyotte - What you just did is called plagiarism. You took the words out of my head cleaned up the gramar and posted here. I will be contacting the word police.
bleedspeed177 wrote:WIleECoyotte - What you just did is called plagiarism. You took the words out of my head cleaned up the gramar and posted here. I will be contacting the word police.
LOL - they've already had me down to the station several times for "excessive text bullet usage."
They're both 21 and they are both going to be monsters in this league. I'm not trading either unless I'm getting a superstar PG back. I don't care about individual rebounding stats. Are we losing games because our SF isn't get 4 more rebounds per game? No. They both need to start and play with each other and build the continuity that pays dividends down the line. There's too much focus on now because we're all disappointed in this season and want to turn it around now. That's not the right play. The right play is to keep building continuity with the big 3 and shift pieces around them when needed.
khans2k5 wrote:They're both 21 and they are both going to be monsters in this league. I'm not trading either unless I'm getting a superstar PG back. I don't care about individual rebounding stats. Are we losing games because our SF isn't get 4 more rebounds per game? No. They both need to start and play with each other and build the continuity that pays dividends down the line. There's too much focus on now because we're all disappointed in this season and want to turn it around now. That's not the right play. The right play is to keep building continuity with the big 3 and shift pieces around them when needed.
Well said. As long as our team rebounding numbers are solid I could care less whether Andrew averages 4 or 6 boards per game.
khans2k5 wrote:They're both 21 and they are both going to be monsters in this league. I'm not trading either unless I'm getting a superstar PG back. I don't care about individual rebounding stats. Are we losing games because our SF isn't get 4 more rebounds per game? No. They both need to start and play with each other and build the continuity that pays dividends down the line. There's too much focus on now because we're all disappointed in this season and want to turn it around now. That's not the right play. The right play is to keep building continuity with the big 3 and shift pieces around them when needed.
Well said. As long as our team rebounding numbers are solid I could care less whether Andrew averages 4 or 6 boards per game.
Our team rebounding unfortunately isn't good right now, but I think everyone (with the exception of Dieng) is capable of helping more on that end so I don't put it all on Wiggins. That responsibility falls on everyone and not just Wiggins.
