Minnesota Sports Forum

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:
I want to blame Wig for standing in the corner 75% of the time on offense, but when I noticed that the high-energy Jamal Crawford was doing the same thing when he was in for Wig, I realized that this is Thibs' coaching approach. Rather than coaching a modern motion offense with players moving without the ball and moving the ball around, he wants to reduce the offense to a 3 on 3 ISO game...the difference between Browns' offensive philosophy and Thibs' was on display last night, and quite sad to see.

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This. You get it LST. That's exactly what his approach his. Nobody good enough to play in the NBA voluntarily stands in the corner and watches the 3 on 3 game being played in front of him. That's totally the plan.

Yes. Note also my point about Thibs directing players on the floor. He's constantly screaming at players about where they should be. If Wiggins wasn't supposed to be there I have no doubt Thibs would have been screaming at him to move. But I can assure you, Thibs was not telling him to move. Wiggins was exactly where Thibs wanted him to be in his prehistoric offense.

That leads to my next point. While I'm among many who have criticized Wiggins, it's hard to fully and accurately assess Wiggins because of his horribly Thibs misuses him. It's also clear that Wiggins has lost his confidence as a shooter. I saw Jimmy trying to buck him up on the court. But being around Thibs would sap anyone's confidence. I mentioned in a thread a week or so ago that I don't want the Wolves to trade anyone until Thibs is gone. My point is that I don't think we're seeing the best in the players we have because of how the team is being coached.

I'm cool with people ripping coaches. It's part of what we do. And it's justified at times.

But blaming Thibs for Wiggins shooting 63% from the line and 30% on three pointers?

That's when I revert to "it's a players league" mode and they are the overwhelming deciding factor in their own growth and development. If he's struggling with his shot... that's on him. It's like Thibs is fucking with his minutes or anything. If Wiggins is struggling to fit in with more talented teammates... that's on him. It's not like they aren't still getting him good looks. It's not like his teammates or coaches have any impact in how he shoots a free throw.

I agree with you for the most part with Wiggins, especially on the free-throw shooting. But an offense that would get Wiggins easier shots would help his percentage and his confidence. Again, that's only a part of it. I suspect that the thing that holds Wiggins back then most is Wiggins. But I'd like to see him play under a coach who gives him better opportunities to play to his strengths and cover his weaknesses. Putting Wiggins in iso situation with his poor ballhandling skills is a prescription for failure.

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:
I want to blame Wig for standing in the corner 75% of the time on offense, but when I noticed that the high-energy Jamal Crawford was doing the same thing when he was in for Wig, I realized that this is Thibs' coaching approach. Rather than coaching a modern motion offense with players moving without the ball and moving the ball around, he wants to reduce the offense to a 3 on 3 ISO game...the difference between Browns' offensive philosophy and Thibs' was on display last night, and quite sad to see.

.

This. You get it LST. That's exactly what his approach his. Nobody good enough to play in the NBA voluntarily stands in the corner and watches the 3 on 3 game being played in front of him. That's totally the plan.

Yes. Note also my point about Thibs directing players on the floor. He's constantly screaming at players about where they should be. If Wiggins wasn't supposed to be there I have no doubt Thibs would have been screaming at him to move. But I can assure you, Thibs was not telling him to move. Wiggins was exactly where Thibs wanted him to be in his prehistoric offense.

That leads to my next point. While I'm among many who have criticized Wiggins, it's hard to fully and accurately assess Wiggins because of his horribly Thibs misuses him. It's also clear that Wiggins has lost his confidence as a shooter. I saw Jimmy trying to buck him up on the court. But being around Thibs would sap anyone's confidence. I mentioned in a thread a week or so ago that I don't want the Wolves to trade anyone until Thibs is gone. My point is that I don't think we're seeing the best in the players we have because of how the team is being coached.

I'm cool with people ripping coaches. It's part of what we do. And it's justified at times.

But blaming Thibs for Wiggins shooting 63% from the line and 30% on three pointers?

That's when I revert to "it's a players league" mode and they are the overwhelming deciding factor in their own growth and development. If he's struggling with his shot... that's on him. It's like Thibs is fucking with his minutes or anything. If Wiggins is struggling to fit in with more talented teammates... that's on him. It's not like they aren't still getting him good looks. It's not like his teammates or coaches have any impact in how he shoots a free throw.

I agree with you for the most part with Wiggins, especially on the free-throw shooting. But an offense that would get Wiggins easier shots would help his percentage and his confidence. Again, that's only a part of it. I suspect that the thing that holds Wiggins back then most is Wiggins. But I'd like to see him play under a coach who gives him better opportunities to play to his strengths and cover his weaknesses. Putting Wiggins in iso situation with his poor ballhandling skills is a prescription for failure.

Sure. But what's the answer? What's the one thing that Wiggins excels at on offense?

He's not a great guy on the break. He's not a good (or even average) three point shooter. Giving the ball to him in post-ups is an even more antiquated style of ball. And we can't devise an entire offense to capitalize on his spin moves to the hoop. This isn't necessarily a knock on Wiggins as much as a genuine question about how to leverage the legit skills he does have... or help him add and develop new ones.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:
I want to blame Wig for standing in the corner 75% of the time on offense, but when I noticed that the high-energy Jamal Crawford was doing the same thing when he was in for Wig, I realized that this is Thibs' coaching approach. Rather than coaching a modern motion offense with players moving without the ball and moving the ball around, he wants to reduce the offense to a 3 on 3 ISO game...the difference between Browns' offensive philosophy and Thibs' was on display last night, and quite sad to see.

.

This. You get it LST. That's exactly what his approach his. Nobody good enough to play in the NBA voluntarily stands in the corner and watches the 3 on 3 game being played in front of him. That's totally the plan.

Yes. Note also my point about Thibs directing players on the floor. He's constantly screaming at players about where they should be. If Wiggins wasn't supposed to be there I have no doubt Thibs would have been screaming at him to move. But I can assure you, Thibs was not telling him to move. Wiggins was exactly where Thibs wanted him to be in his prehistoric offense.

That leads to my next point. While I'm among many who have criticized Wiggins, it's hard to fully and accurately assess Wiggins because of his horribly Thibs misuses him. It's also clear that Wiggins has lost his confidence as a shooter. I saw Jimmy trying to buck him up on the court. But being around Thibs would sap anyone's confidence. I mentioned in a thread a week or so ago that I don't want the Wolves to trade anyone until Thibs is gone. My point is that I don't think we're seeing the best in the players we have because of how the team is being coached.

I'm cool with people ripping coaches. It's part of what we do. And it's justified at times.

But blaming Thibs for Wiggins shooting 63% from the line and 30% on three pointers?

That's when I revert to "it's a players league" mode and they are the overwhelming deciding factor in their own growth and development. If he's struggling with his shot... that's on him. It's like Thibs is fucking with his minutes or anything. If Wiggins is struggling to fit in with more talented teammates... that's on him. It's not like they aren't still getting him good looks. It's not like his teammates or coaches have any impact in how he shoots a free throw.

I agree with you for the most part with Wiggins, especially on the free-throw shooting. But an offense that would get Wiggins easier shots would help his percentage and his confidence. Again, that's only a part of it. I suspect that the thing that holds Wiggins back then most is Wiggins. But I'd like to see him play under a coach who gives him better opportunities to play to his strengths and cover his weaknesses. Putting Wiggins in iso situation with his poor ballhandling skills is a prescription for failure.

Sure. But what's the answer? What's the one thing that Wiggins excels at on offense?

He's not a great guy on the break. He's not a good (or even average) three point shooter. Giving the ball to him in post-ups is an even more antiquated style of ball. And we can't devise an entire offense to capitalize on his spin moves to the hoop. This isn't necessarily a knock on Wiggins as much as a genuine question about how to leverage the legit skills he does have... or help him add and develop new ones.

All great questions, Abe. I don't have any good answers right now.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:That's gonna continue to tumble until Wiggins finds his stroke.

While Wiggins will certainly find his stroke at some point, he will just as assuredly lose it again a couple games later. There is nothing consistent about Wiggins outside of his inconsistency.

TheSP wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:That's gonna continue to tumble until Wiggins finds his stroke.

While Wiggins will certainly find his stroke at some point, he will just as assuredly lose it again a couple games later. There is nothing consistent about Wiggins outside of his inconsistency.

Ok. But if he can get back to where he was last season (35.6%) that opens up a ton of stuff for him and his teammates. Wiggins as a league average three point shooter is good enough. He's still a weapon out there.

To be fair... he's been at 30% or 31% in his other three seasons, so I can see why some might think that's the norm and last season was the anomaly.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

TheSP wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:That's gonna continue to tumble until Wiggins finds his stroke.

While Wiggins will certainly find his stroke at some point, he will just as assuredly lose it again a couple games later. There is nothing consistent about Wiggins outside of his inconsistency.

Ok. But if he can get back to where he was last season (35.6%) that opens up a ton of stuff for him and his teammates. Wiggins as a league average three point shooter is good enough. He's still a weapon out there.

To be fair... he's been at 30% or 31% in his other three seasons, so I can see why some might think that's the norm and last season was the anomaly.

Even when he's shooting that 35.6% he's actually shooting 45% in a handful of games and 5% in a most others. Exaggeration to be sure, but Wiggins isn't a guy who you know going into any given game he can be counted on. He's the definition of a crap shoot IMO, which itself is the definition of a crap shot!

TheSP wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

TheSP wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:That's gonna continue to tumble until Wiggins finds his stroke.

While Wiggins will certainly find his stroke at some point, he will just as assuredly lose it again a couple games later. There is nothing consistent about Wiggins outside of his inconsistency.

Ok. But if he can get back to where he was last season (35.6%) that opens up a ton of stuff for him and his teammates. Wiggins as a league average three point shooter is good enough. He's still a weapon out there.

To be fair... he's been at 30% or 31% in his other three seasons, so I can see why some might think that's the norm and last season was the anomaly.

Even when he's shooting that 35.6% he's actually shooting 45% in a handful of games and 5% in a most others. Exaggeration to be sure, but Wiggins isn't a guy who you know going into any given game he can be counted on. He's the definition of a crap shoot IMO, which itself is the definition of a crap shot!

Over 82 games... every player will have good and bad games. Wiggins at 36% over a couple hundred (or more) attempts is helping out the team -- whether he's 5 - 8 one game and 1 - 4 the next two games or not.

Shooting consistently worse over 82 games is not as good.

Not exactly brain surgery here.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

TheSP wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

TheSP wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:That's gonna continue to tumble until Wiggins finds his stroke.

While Wiggins will certainly find his stroke at some point, he will just as assuredly lose it again a couple games later. There is nothing consistent about Wiggins outside of his inconsistency.

Ok. But if he can get back to where he was last season (35.6%) that opens up a ton of stuff for him and his teammates. Wiggins as a league average three point shooter is good enough. He's still a weapon out there.

To be fair... he's been at 30% or 31% in his other three seasons, so I can see why some might think that's the norm and last season was the anomaly.

Even when he's shooting that 35.6% he's actually shooting 45% in a handful of games and 5% in a most others. Exaggeration to be sure, but Wiggins isn't a guy who you know going into any given game he can be counted on. He's the definition of a crap shoot IMO, which itself is the definition of a crap shot!

Over 82 games... every player will have good and bad games. Wiggins at 36% over a couple hundred (or more) attempts is helping out the team -- whether he's 5 - 8 one game and 1 - 4 the next two games or not.

Shooting consistently worse over 82 games is not as good.

Not exactly brain surgery here.

Yeah it doesn't really matter who is coaching if Wiggins can't hit 3's over a season for a decent percentage. It's bad news for him as a player, the offense in general and of course the long term outlook of the team. I think he can make enough 3's during his career to be plenty useful in that area. If he could become something closer to what we have seen the first few games of the last 2 seasons from 3 that basically changes everything. I wouldn't expect that but I don't think it's completely insane to consider that possibility either. Only time will tell.

Wig is missing too many shots, period. But it's the way he's missing them that tells the story. It's not like he's getting bad bounces and is unlucky. He's just missing, sometimes by a lot. He's always been streaky, but the good streaks are few and far between over the last couple weeks. Let's just hope he can snap out of it sooner than later, we need him to be better. Most of his misses appear to be long, which tells me he's gotten stronger and hasn't practiced enough to re-groove his shot. The second element is that now it appears to be in his head. When the confidence goes it can be very difficult to get back. You can blame it all on the player if you wish, but one thing I can say factually is that wig has never played in a modern offense. Not under Flip and not under Thibs. I don't know if would make a difference or not but I'd sure like to find out. And yes, this talent laden team is an abomination to watch. I even feel dirty after wins.

Octheberge wrote:Wig is missing too many shots, period. But it's the way he's missing them that tells the story. It's not like he's getting bad bounces and is unlucky. He's just missing, sometimes by a lot. He's always been streaky, but the good streaks are few and far between over the last couple weeks. Let's just hope he can snap out of it sooner than later, we need him to be better. Most of his misses appear to be long, which tells me he's gotten stronger and hasn't practiced enough to re-groove his shot. The second element is that now it appears to be in his head. When the confidence goes it can be very difficult to get back. You can blame it all on the player if you wish, but one thing I can say factually is that wig has never played in a modern offense. Not under Flip and not under Thibs. I don't know if would make a difference or not but I'd sure like to find out. And yes, this talent laden team is an abomination to watch. I even feel dirty after wins.

Oops, used the wrong account. This is my post.