Minnesota Sports Forum

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:We had Prince and KG last year - both with rings on their fingers - along with Miller for the first part of the year. Yet none of these guys could prevent the abysmal mid-season slide (I think we went 4-21 for that stretch?).

Granted, we did eventually turn things around to finish the season with - whoopee! - 29 wins. Ironically, by then the veteran mentors were largely out of the rotation, if not completely out of the picture.

I mocked the "Garnett as mentor" narrative, but I think those guys actually helped a bit considering their brief stints and marginal on-court roles. I know the team added Towns, who played better than expected. But it was a 16-win team previously. And the coach/architect of the team died days before the start of the season.

I think those veterans helped steady the ship. And as we know, the team did show progress as the season went on. 29 wins was a nice step from 16 wins.

Was less than one season... and minimal roles... enough to create a team built on accountability and professionalism or whatever? Apparently not. This season, all that responsible falls on a chubby, loud 50+ year old guy who probably has next to nothing in common with any of these players. Assumption here: But do you think any of the young guys are seeking out Thibodeau to just discuss the game? Are they actively avoiding him when they can?

I think that's the #1 thing we're going to learn from this season. Hopefully, Thibodeau learns (already knows) it, too.

Don't forget another huge difference between '14-15 and '15-16 is that we had a healthy Ricky Rubio and we (eventually) ended the LaVine at PG experiment. Again, that had nothing to do with veteran mentorship or leadership, yet I would argue it was a big reason we won more games (along with KAT).

As for Thibs, it's a very valid question as to how he is connecting with his young charges. One of the things I felt was going to be a really positive factor heading into the season was that from the get-go, we were going with the same 5-man starting group that we ended last season with. And to this day, Thibs continues to stick with that group. Yet they have taken a fairly large step backwards from last year. I never would have expected that. I mean, that has GOT to not reflect well on Thibs, right?

Um, yeah. Most of us are probably in the business world in some fashion, and let's liken this to that world. Let's say you were hired at a salary quadruple that of your predecessor to lead a struggling but clearly improving company with great potential. Initially your arrival was met with great acclaim, but 1/4 of the way into your first year, the company is performing markedly worse than it was before you arrived under a reputed worse CEO. You don't think there would be a lot of discussion behind your back by your stakeholders? Well, this long-time stakeholder is attributing the lion's share of this early season failure to the only substantial difference from last March/April...the coaching staff. And I can assure you that this is a cntral topic of conversation when the ownership meets (most recently last week). I can't find any other reasonable explanation for the dramatic change.

I haven't watched much of this underperforming team the past two weeks except for the final 10 minutes in Charlotte (very impressive, BTW), but I am going to the game tonight. One of the things I will be focusing on is the difference in coaching styles between Pop and Thibs...like Lip, I'm lucky to have seats that let me easily observe the coaches, although I'm closer to the opposing team. I'm still holding on to hope that Thibs is smart enough to see the things he is doing that aren't working. I hope to see a much different Thibs than I watched in the last Knicks game I went to.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:We had Prince and KG last year - both with rings on their fingers - along with Miller for the first part of the year. Yet none of these guys could prevent the abysmal mid-season slide (I think we went 4-21 for that stretch?).

Granted, we did eventually turn things around to finish the season with - whoopee! - 29 wins. Ironically, by then the veteran mentors were largely out of the rotation, if not completely out of the picture.

I mocked the "Garnett as mentor" narrative, but I think those guys actually helped a bit considering their brief stints and marginal on-court roles. I know the team added Towns, who played better than expected. But it was a 16-win team previously. And the coach/architect of the team died days before the start of the season.

I think those veterans helped steady the ship. And as we know, the team did show progress as the season went on. 29 wins was a nice step from 16 wins.

Was less than one season... and minimal roles... enough to create a team built on accountability and professionalism or whatever? Apparently not. This season, all that responsible falls on a chubby, loud 50+ year old guy who probably has next to nothing in common with any of these players. Assumption here: But do you think any of the young guys are seeking out Thibodeau to just discuss the game? Are they actively avoiding him when they can?

I think that's the #1 thing we're going to learn from this season. Hopefully, Thibodeau learns (already knows) it, too.

Don't forget another huge difference between '14-15 and '15-16 is that we had a healthy Ricky Rubio and we (eventually) ended the LaVine at PG experiment. Again, that had nothing to do with veteran mentorship or leadership, yet I would argue it was a big reason we won more games (along with KAT).

As for Thibs, it's a very valid question as to how he is connecting with his young charges. One of the things I felt was going to be a really positive factor heading into the season was that from the get-go, we were going with the same 5-man starting group that we ended last season with. And to this day, Thibs continues to stick with that group. Yet they have taken a fairly large step backwards from last year. I never would have expected that. I mean, that has GOT to not reflect well on Thibs, right?

Yeah, at some point it does.

I don't think anybody questions his knowledge based on his coaching resume. But the other part of coaching is reaching players. Obviously, some coaches are better at reaching younger players. Or star players. Or guys trying to stay in the NBA. Et al.

Can you imagine Phil Jackson trying to reach Michael Beasley or Rashad McCants without a Shaq, Kobe, Jordan or Pippen around? Likewise, what would Brett Brown be like in Cleveland instead of Philly?

There are still about 60 games left. I think it's going to be a rough 1st half of the season... but the 2nd half could offer hope for next season. The team SHOULD improve.

Yep... just one more season. Be patient, Wolves fans. You can't rush NBA mediocrity.



[Note: I've been waiting to do the research on the number of team "rebuilds" around the league over the past 12 seasons, and how many teams have been destroyed only to be built up again. I was hoping I wouldn't have to do it at all. It might be time...]

Hopefully I am not sounding like too much of a homer but it seems like the guys on this team that matter and are signed for a while actually are basketball guys gym rats passionate about basketball. Towns probably is that he cares too much Lavine supposedly had his gym key revoked. Other than Cool Jordan Hill I can't think of a guy on the roster that seems like he isn't invested in being an NBA basketball player and from what's i know is a pretty good person. I'm sure most NBA players are invested too but at this point it seems like this roster is more likely to be looking to try and get better talking to coaches than blowing him off.

One thing that's ironic and somewhat amusing is the talk a few months ago was if Thibs and Wiggins would be good with each other. Wiggins started off hot Thibs was giving him the ball and everything was great. My guess is a lot of Wiggins early success and growth of his game is what he did working on his game in the offseason as much as anything. The talk this season is whether Thibs style is distracting Towns which based on the reports of what his dad is like is kinda funny.

It was reported Thibs and Derrick Rose used to go out for dinner all the time. I'm guessing Thibs is more of a human than he gets credit for. Who would have guessed Popovich would be a guy speaking about social issues? Anyway at some point we will see the results good and bad. I've been curious to see if Spolstra can manage a roster of young developing guys after winning championships with HOFers and a contending roster. Tiley will make a run at some vets next summer or before but my guess is they will need to keep developing guys to have a success in their rebuild which right now is built around a guy that was toiling in the d-league what around 2 years ago? Amazing

The Portland example frustrates me too. For some reason no matter who they have in the front office, they find a way to rebuild quickly. Of course Lillard turns out to be one of the best guards in the game. Of course the guy I wanted to draft (McCollum) becomes a star player. Of course Meyers Leonard doesn't become the bust a lot of people thought he would be. Of course their mid level free agents come in and improve and seamlessly fit in. And one thing their owner isn't going to do is sell a 1st round draft choice for cash.

The comical thing is that Thibodeau is comparable to Popovich both in basketball knowledge, ideology, and sideline antics -- way more than people would like to admit.

A huge difference is that Pop has always had a front office and ownership group that trusted him and took his input very seriously. I maintain the belief that this was not the case for Thibodeau in Chicago, and so do a lot of Bulls fans that I've interacted with.

A simple Google search would land you a link to a video of Popovich yelling at Danny Green to "shut the fuck up" after a crucial late fourth quarter mistake a year or so ago, I think. Green fouled when Pop said not to, they could have played straight up, Pop got in his ass about it. Dear, God, the reactions on this board would be insane if Thibs had done that to LaVine after he failed to successfully inbound the ball on the last possession of the Knicks game or Bjelica ever.

Camden wrote:The comical thing is that Thibodeau is comparable to Popovich both in basketball knowledge, ideology, and sideline antics -- way more than people would like to admit.

A huge difference is that Pop has always had a front office and ownership group that trusted him and took his input very seriously. I maintain the belief that this was not the case for Thibodeau in Chicago, and so do a lot of Bulls fans that I've interacted with.

A simple Google search would land you a link to a video of Popovich yelling at Danny Green to "shut the fuck up" after a crucial late fourth quarter mistake a year or so ago, I think. Green fouled when Pop said not to, they could have played straight up, Pop got in his ass about it. Dear, God, the reactions on this board would be insane if Thibs had done that to LaVine after he failed to successfully inbound the ball on the last possession of the Knicks game or Bjelica ever.

I'm not sure I am anti-Thibs per se, but there is no question the same exact group of guys Mitchell had are underperforming.

And since Taylor made a massive commitment to Thibs, he's not going anywhere. Therefore, if the players don't improve, guess what's going to change? Thibs will need to get his kind of players in here that can actually grasp defensive concepts and then have the mental discipline and "want to" to execute.....and don't mind getting barked at constantly.

It's too early to speculate too much on next offseason, but I could see fairly major changes in store if this group doesn't start to progress.

I hope we eventually all look back at the first 20 games and laugh at our collective impatience and rush to judgment.

Another consideration is Martell Webster was #6 overall for Portland and he was a bust. You can find plenty of moves Portland screwed up since then that haven't been mentioned yet and still they have ended up being relevant. Our time is coming.

monsterpile wrote:Another consideration is Martell Webster was #6 overall for Portland and he was a bust. You can find plenty of moves Portland screwed up since then that haven't been mentioned yet and still they have ended up being relevant. Our time is coming.

Agreed. It's been a long time. But the team has worked diligently to prove that this franchise is legit. Don't fret guys. Eventually, we'll be rewarded by being one of the 53% of teams in the league who make the playoffs.

At least once. I think. Maybe.

Thanks for reminding us how bad things are Abe. Happy holidays!!

Q12543 wrote:

Camden wrote:The comical thing is that Thibodeau is comparable to Popovich both in basketball knowledge, ideology, and sideline antics -- way more than people would like to admit.

A huge difference is that Pop has always had a front office and ownership group that trusted him and took his input very seriously. I maintain the belief that this was not the case for Thibodeau in Chicago, and so do a lot of Bulls fans that I've interacted with.

A simple Google search would land you a link to a video of Popovich yelling at Danny Green to "shut the fuck up" after a crucial late fourth quarter mistake a year or so ago, I think. Green fouled when Pop said not to, they could have played straight up, Pop got in his ass about it. Dear, God, the reactions on this board would be insane if Thibs had done that to LaVine after he failed to successfully inbound the ball on the last possession of the Knicks game or Bjelica ever.

I'm not sure I am anti-Thibs per se, but there is no question the same exact group of guys Mitchell had are underperforming.

And since Taylor made a massive commitment to Thibs, he's not going anywhere. Therefore, if the players don't improve, guess what's going to change? Thibs will need to get his kind of players in here that can actually grasp defensive concepts and then have the mental discipline and "want to" to execute.....and don't mind getting barked at constantly.

It's too early to speculate too much on next offseason, but I could see fairly major changes in store if this group doesn't start to progress.

I hope we eventually all look back at the first 20 games and laugh at our collective impatience and rush to judgment.

I certainly wasn't Thibs biggest supporter before he got here, but I'm willing to bet your bold comment will prove true.

thedoper wrote:Thanks for reminding us how bad things are Abe. Happy holidays!!

He's a scrooge isn't he?