Game Report - Wolves v. Celtics

[mjs34]

I wasn't on board with the Butler trade because I thought it was too early for the team, but he is great two way player so i can live with it. What bothers me the most is that Thibs took a team supposedly loaded with young talent, assets and cap space, and two years later we look close to another rebuild.

To date I believe Thibs is responsible for signing Gorgui to a ridiculous 4 year 64 mil deal (which I have been continually critical of if for no other reason than he didn't wait for his RFA year). He signed Cole to a 7 mil/yr deal and never plays him, he traded Ricky and added another 5 mil to get Teague, who is a defensive liability on a team that already sucked on the defensive side of the ball. He signed JC who is another bad defender. He drafted Patton who is also defensively challenged. He rewarded WIg with the 5 year max, a year earlier than he had to. Oh, and lets not forget that he had offered Bazz a deal worth between 8-10 mil that luckily was turned down.

All of the above and we now have a playoff bubble team in cap hell with no high picks and close to the bottom in defense.

What was Thibs good at again????

Fair points. I think by far the #1 thing Thibs has failed at is building a defensive culture. That was the one area people unanimously agreed he could do well. We've seen other coaches take rosters without much turnover and immediately change the culture defensively. Whatever buttons he's been trying to push the last two years (and whatever worked in Chicago) hasn't worked with this squad, plain and simple.

I've stated before that I question Thibs defensive chops. He had a great player in KG to build around, and other great defensive players in Noah, Deng, Gibson, Butler, etc in chicago. When did he build a great defense without those guys, and what has he shown in the new NBA?

I am still confused as to why Taylor gave him complete control.

I am also convinced that as long as he stands on the sidelines screaming about every call (good or bad), that we will always come out on the short end with the refs.

[kekgeek]

Justin Patton is going to fit right in with Wiggins and KAT. These guys are all talented players, but ultimately losers at this stage in their career, for various reasons. With KAT, it's defense. With Wiggins, it's the inability to turn elite talent into anything beyond mediocrity; he's a permanent tease. And with Patton, he's got the soft and lazy disease, which has no cure.

Not feeling too good about the future fellas!

I fear you're right about Patton, but I hope not. As you know, I share your pessimism about the future. I heard someone on NBA radio the other day suggest that the Wolves "pressed the go button to soon," referring to the Butler trade. His point was that Butler will be on the decline when the Warriors finally start to decline and that's especially true when you consider Butler just had all or part of his right knee meniscus removed. There's an argument that the Wolves would have been better off keeping Dunn, LaVine and our #7 draft pick. Dunn brings toughness and defense in a young body with lots of upside. LaVine brings 3-point shooting and ballhandling skills that fit today's NBA along with lots of untapped upside. And although it's reported that the Wolves were going to draft Markkanen, it would have been interesting if they would have traded down a few slots and drafted Mitchell while also getting another asset.
I'm not suggesting that I would have done the things I just mentioned if I had been in charge. But perhaps another, smarter front office would have. There are arguments on both sides.

Another way to come at this issue is to ask yourself the following question. Right now, would you rather be a Wolves fan or a Sixers fan?

I'm still supportive of the move Thibs made to acquire Butler. LaVine and Dunn aren't exactly setting the world on fire in Chicago. The problem is that he has failed to coach the team up defensively and he didn't acquire a legit floor spacer in the offseason.

I wasn't on board with the Butler trade because I thought it was too early for the team, but he is great two way player so i can live with it. What bothers me the most is that Thibs took a team supposedly loaded with young talent, assets and cap space, and two years later we look close to another rebuild.

To date I believe Thibs is responsible for signing Gorgui to a ridiculous 4 year 64 mil deal (which I have been continually critical of if for no other reason than he didn't wait for his RFA year). He signed Cole to a 7 mil/yr deal and never plays him, he traded Ricky and added another 5 mil to get Teague, who is a defensive liability on a team that already sucked on the defensive side of the ball. He signed JC who is another bad defender. He drafted Patton who is also defensively challenged. He rewarded WIg with the 5 year max, a year earlier than he had to. Oh, and lets not forget that he had offered Bazz a deal worth between 8-10 mil that luckily was turned down.

All of the above and we now have a playoff bubble team in cap hell with no high picks and close to the bottom in defense.

What was Thibs good at again????

Fair points. I think by far the #1 thing Thibs has failed at is building a defensive culture. That was the one area people unanimously agreed he could do well. We've seen other coaches take rosters without much turnover and immediately change the culture defensively. Whatever buttons he's been trying to push the last two years (and whatever worked in Chicago) hasn't worked with this squad, plain and simple.

Ya solid points SMJ. You were right about the Gorgui contract, I was wrong. That is the only contract I am like man that is a bad one. We can argue about the Rubio trade all day but I still would do it every time because we added a 1st round pick. I also think Teague is better and Rubio is going to get a contract when his is up also.

But I also agree with Q, if it is the players fault or Thibs fault, he has not been able to create the defensive culture. I feel like, Wiggins has gotten better on that end but still not elite. Kat has moments of good defensive but he still has a long ways to go.

Still wonder, can you build around an offensive first center. It is so much harder to get them shots, I mean Wiggins has shot 155 more times than KAT. And we just can't give the ball to Kat at the top of the key and say go to work. If you look at every good team this year. Only Valanciunas is a guy who is a offensive first center who is on an elite team and he is the 3rd to 5th option offensively.

Just a thought.

[kekgeek]

I wasn't on board with the Butler trade because I thought it was too early for the team, but he is great two way player so i can live with it. What bothers me the most is that Thibs took a team supposedly loaded with young talent, assets and cap space, and two years later we look close to another rebuild.

To date I believe Thibs is responsible for signing Gorgui to a ridiculous 4 year 64 mil deal (which I have been continually critical of if for no other reason than he didn't wait for his RFA year). He signed Cole to a 7 mil/yr deal and never plays him, he traded Ricky and added another 5 mil to get Teague, who is a defensive liability on a team that already sucked on the defensive side of the ball. He signed JC who is another bad defender. He drafted Patton who is also defensively challenged. He rewarded WIg with the 5 year max, a year earlier than he had to. Oh, and lets not forget that he had offered Bazz a deal worth between 8-10 mil that luckily was turned down.

All of the above and we now have a playoff bubble team in cap hell with no high picks and close to the bottom in defense.

What was Thibs good at again????

Fair points. I think by far the #1 thing Thibs has failed at is building a defensive culture. That was the one area people unanimously agreed he could do well. We've seen other coaches take rosters without much turnover and immediately change the culture defensively. Whatever buttons he's been trying to push the last two years (and whatever worked in Chicago) hasn't worked with this squad, plain and simple.

I've stated before that I question Thibs defensive chops. He had a great player in KG to build around, and other great defensive players in Noah, Deng, Gibson, Butler, etc in chicago. When did he build a great defense without those guys, and what has he shown in the new NBA?

I am still confused as to why Taylor gave him complete control.

I am also convinced that as long as he stands on the sidelines screaming about every call (good or bad), that we will always come out on the short end with the refs.

My one knock against the defensive chops statement. Was Noah (4th year), Gibson (2nd year), Butler (rookie) even Rose (3rd year) were all really young when Thibs got them. Deng (7th year) went up a level when he was coached under thibs.

You need players to be successful, I mean Walton lost 1 game in like 30 when he coached for the Warriors and now he was on the hot seat with the Lakers when his players are not as good.

I think he deserves credit for those years with the Bulls but for whatever reason he has not been able to push the right buttons with these wolves players and that goes on both Thibs and the players (even though I always lean more to the players)

[mjs34]

Fair points. I think by far the #1 thing Thibs has failed at is building a defensive culture. That was the one area people unanimously agreed he could do well. We've seen other coaches take rosters without much turnover and immediately change the culture defensively. Whatever buttons he's been trying to push the last two years (and whatever worked in Chicago) hasn't worked with this squad, plain and simple.

Ya solid points SMJ. You were right about the Gorgui contract, I was wrong. That is the only contract I am like man that is a bad one. We can argue about the Rubio trade all day but I still would do it every time because we added a 1st round pick. I also think Teague is better and Rubio is going to get a contract when his is up also.

But I also agree with Q, if it is the players fault or Thibs fault, he has not been able to create the defensive culture. I feel like, Wiggins has gotten better on that end but still not elite. Kat has moments of good defensive but he still has a long ways to go.

Still wonder, can you build around an offensive first center. It is so much harder to get them shots, I mean Wiggins has shot 155 more times than KAT. And we just can't give the ball to Kat at the top of the key and say go to work. If you look at every good team this year. Only Valanciunas is a guy who is a offensive first center who is on an elite team and he is the 3rd to 5th option offensively.

Just a thought.

I never like comparing to other teams becasue all players have different skillsets. KAT definitely needs to improve on D, or does our coach need to simplify things?

The first round pick we added will bring us another Patton. A guy that will take two or three years to develop and then need to be overpaid, traded for little, or let walk. As a team in Minny our picks that we use to build around KAT and Wig need to be ready to produce. Taking a big that has 3 or 4 years of college should be a priority here.

I fully support the notion that Thibs has failed to create a defensive identity for this team.

[mjs34]

My one knock against the defensive chops statement. Was Noah (4th year), Gibson (2nd year), Butler (rookie) even Rose (3rd year) were all really young when Thibs got them. Deng (7th year) went up a level when he was coached under thibs.

You need players to be successful, I mean Walton lost 1 game in like 30 when he coached for the Warriors and now he was on the hot seat with the Lakers when his players are not as good.

I think he deserves credit for those years with the Bulls but for whatever reason he has not been able to push the right buttons with these wolves players and that goes on both Thibs and the players (even though I always lean more to the players)

I think Deng went up a level offensively, other than that most of those guys were good defenders coming out of college.

I didn't know Walton was on the hot seat? Other than the blowhard from Lithuania shooting off his mouth. I am impressed with what Walton has accomplished with his team, even with Ball out for a good portion. They look a lot better than what Thibs produced last season.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I actually think Thibs was and is a really smart and good defensive mind. HOWEVER, it's one thing to be a great mind, it's another to actually execute the plan and get guys to buy in. Whatever he did that worked elsewhere simply hasn't worked in Minnesota. He hasn't executed. Also, the signing of Jamal Crawford (and now Derek Rose) runs completely counter to building a defensive culture. Crawford has always been one of the worst defending guards in the NBA. Butler and Gibson simply weren't enough and whatever mentoring they have provided hasn't rubbed off.

[mjs34]

Another consideration when considering Thibs success. The bulls were playing in the eastern conference. A top four finish there might be a borderline playoff/lottery team in the WC.

[kekgeek]

My one knock against the defensive chops statement. Was Noah (4th year), Gibson (2nd year), Butler (rookie) even Rose (3rd year) were all really young when Thibs got them. Deng (7th year) went up a level when he was coached under thibs.

You need players to be successful, I mean Walton lost 1 game in like 30 when he coached for the Warriors and now he was on the hot seat with the Lakers when his players are not as good.

I think he deserves credit for those years with the Bulls but for whatever reason he has not been able to push the right buttons with these wolves players and that goes on both Thibs and the players (even though I always lean more to the players)

I think Deng went up a level offensively, other than that most of those guys were good defenders coming out of college.

I didn't know Walton was on the hot seat? Other than the blowhard from Lithuania shooting off his mouth. I am impressed with what Walton has accomplished with his team, even with Ball out for a good portion. They look a lot better than what Thibs produced last season.

Do I think he should be on the hot seat no. But there was a lot of rumors saying they were going to fired Walton for Fizdale. I also agree though Walton has done a good job. I have always been it is more about the players than the coach.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I actually think Thibs was and is a really smart and good defensive mind. HOWEVER, it's one thing to be a great mind, it's another to actually execute the plan and get guys to buy in. Whatever he did that worked elsewhere simply hasn't worked in Minnesota. He hasn't executed. Also, the signing of Jamal Crawford (and now Derek Rose) runs completely counter to building a defensive culture. Crawford has always been one of the worst defending guards in the NBA. Butler and Gibson simply weren't enough and whatever mentoring they have provided hasn't rubbed off.

I feel we're gonna have several months debating what went wrong... why things aren't working... upcoming... but might as well get started:

1) The Bulls were a legit NBA team... and exceptional defensively. Problem is that it was 6 or 7 years ago. It might not seem that long ago (especially for a franchise with a 13-year playoff drought)... but the game has changed immensely. Those Bulls are known for a unique style of keeping the ball on one side of the floor. OK. Fair enough. It worked... but in a league where guys like Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, Andrew Bynum and Zach Randolph were All NBA players.

It's a different league. Extra spacing alone offensively really stretches the capabilities of that scheme, right? And then you have...

2) Too much too soon. It's been my rallying cry this season. Andrew Wiggins was rewarded for half-assed efforts and inconsistency with $146.5M... and request to try harder. KAT will get a max deal for doing things largely his way as well. Meh.

3) Two ways to look at the Crawford signing. Even good defensive teams have bad defensive players... but the rest of the team covers for them so to speak. The Wolves have more bad defensive players than good ones and there's your problem. It could also be the 30-year-vet coach grasping at air trying to keep up with a rapidly evolving league but not even knowing which way to turn. There's no other excuse for the Derrick Rose signing.

4) Somebody else wondered if it's possible to build a good team around an offensive-minded center. Sure. I think so... but ONLY if you use that offensive minded center as a primary focal point offensively. MORE TOUCHES PLEASE!

[Duke13]

Taylor handed over the keys to a great foundation that Flip built and Thibs has fumbled it. Can we recover or will this be a year or 2 bounce and than back to rebuilding?

That is unfair to Thibs. Flip handed Thibs, KAT, Wiggins and Lavine. He flipped Lavine for an All NBA type player in Butler. We don't know how Kat and/or wiggins would have developed under Flip. We have to remember Flip was even more of a long 2 specialist in his offensive theory so I have no idea how he would have been under Flip. Also Who knows if Kat would be any better or worse.

You failed to mention Dunn ( a year removed from being the #5 pick, most people thought was a ROY candidate, but Tibs helped kill his value) and the #8 pick was including in that trade. It you look around the league, that's a lot to give up for a disgruntled super star. I'm not bashing the trade but just pointing out Tibs had a lot of assets to make that deal. I'm not willing to give Tibs credit for making some genius trade.