Minnesota Sports Forum

crazy-canuck wrote:i think those are individual drtg from nba.com.

Those rankings include guys that play no minutes. For example, kuzminkus is no1. with a 0 drtg off of 1 game played.

That's correct. The take-away isn't the number ranking; it's the relative ranking. Teague's 403 ranking (109.5 defensive rating) puts him near the bottom of players who have played a lot of games and minutes and it puts him pretty close to Crawford's 482 ranking. Crawford's defensive rating is an astoundingly horrible 113.5. Belly's defensive rating of 109.1 is almost as bad as Teague's. Wiggins has a 108 rating and KAT a slightly worse 108.4 rating -- both well into the bottom half of players who have played a lot of minutes. Butler's 105.3 defensive rating is significantly better than Wiggins and KAT, but not great compared to other players with lots of minutes in the League.

Here are some defensive ratings of other NBA players.

Covington - 99.9 (ranked 60)
Jaylen Brown - 100 (ranked 61)
Jason Tatum - 100.2 (ranked 66)
Iggy 100.5 (ranked 68)
Luc Moute - 100.5(ranked 69)
Shaun LIvingston -100.7 (ranked 70)
Al Horford - 100.9 (ranked 73)
Kyle Anderson - 100.9
Pau Gasol - 101
Terry Rozier - 101.1 (ranked 77)
Aldridge = 101.6
Donovan Mitchell - 101.7
Ben Simmons - 101.7 (ranked 89)
Danny Green - 102.1
CJ Miles - 102.1 (ranked 96)
JJ Redick - 102.5 (ranked 105)
Joe Ingles - 102.7 (ranked 108
Klay Thompson - 102.8
Rudy Gay - 103.2
Larry Nance Jr. - 103.3
Kyrie Irving - 103.4 (ranked 133)
Yogi Ferrell - 103.5 (ranked 135)
Chris Paul - 103.6
TJ McConnell - 103.8
Lonzo Ball - 104
Westbrook - 104.5
Giannis - 104.5 (ranked 174)
John Wall - 104.7 (ranked 179)
Kyle Lowry - 104.7 (ranked 182)
James Harden - 104.7 (ranked 180)
Kuzma - 106.1 (ranked 256)
Valanciumas - 106.6 (ranked 270)
DeAndre Jordan - 107.7 (ranked 329)
Jokic - 107.1 (ranked 345)

Those are their drtg numbers, but crawford has a big impact on those numbers. Take him out of the equation and the individual drtg numbers become bearable.

Throw tyus in for teague, its even better.

crazy-canuck wrote:Those are their drtg numbers, but crawford has a big impact on those numbers. Take him out of the equation and the individual drtg numbers become bearable.

Throw tyus in for teague, its even better.

No doubt that teammates have an impact on a player's defensive rating. I agree completely that Crawford drags down his teammates' defensive ratings, which makes the defensive rating of Tyus Jones even more impressive since almost all his minutes have come with Crawford on the floor.

What strikes me is how even historically elite defenders like Butler and Taj mediocre defensive ratings at best. Some of that is playing with KAT, Wiggins and especially Teague. But it would seem that a significant part of the equation is coaching. I think the article you posted to start this thread speaks to that.

Thanks for clarifying about where these numbers are from.

Someone else mentioned the bigs being a significant part of defense. It would be interesting to see what some of those players ratings are when you compare who their big man was behind them.

Also based on what I have heard read from a number of people Kuzma is not particularly good defensively so that's an example (along with I believe Avery Bradley's mysterious low advanced defensive ratings) of how these numbers are ones to consider and as a piece of the puzzle.

monsterpile wrote:Thanks for clarifying about where these numbers are from.

Someone else mentioned the bigs being a significant part of defense. It would be interesting to see what some of those players ratings are when you compare who their big man was behind them.

Also based on what I have heard read from a number of people Kuzma is not particularly good defensively so that's an example (along with I believe Avery Bradley's mysterious low advanced defensive ratings) of how these numbers are ones to consider and as a piece of the puzzle.

I've heard the same thing about Kuzma. But Kuzma's defensive rating of 106.1 isn't terrible, even though isn't particularly good either. So Kuzma's rating could be read to support the narrative we've heard. And for all we know, he's not as bad as we've heard. As for Bradley, his defensive rating of 107.5 last season wasn't great. Regarding his horrible rating this season, I think it's physical issues. He played only 55 games last season because of injuries. This season he's played even fewer games because of injuries, which have included a sports hernia and more recently surgery to repair torn muscles. He just hasn't been the player he used to be physically and it shows in his defensive ratings this season and even last season.

To your main point, I agree that these numbers are just one piece of the defensive puzzle. Yet, I think they're generally a pretty useful indicator of a player's defensive performance relative to others around the League. They can also provide some indication of a player's defensive improvement or lack thereof over time. And they can tell us something about the impact of coaching as we see player's numbers chance from one year to the next with a change in head coach.

A couple of interesting tidbits I noticed. Wiggins defensive rating in 2015-16 was 106.6. Last season in his first season under Thibs it got significantly worst at 110.4. His rating has improved this season to 108, but that's still not as good as it was two seasons ago. KAT's trajectory has been nearly identical to Andrew's. Two seasons ago, KAT had a rating of 108. Last season, in his first season under Thibs, got significantly worse at 110.8. Now it's improved back to around where it was two seasons ago. Jamaal's defensive rating last season was 108.4, not nearly as bad as his 113 rating this season. Two seasons ago, Jamaal's rating was actually very good at 103.1. Hard to know what all this means, but it's interesting.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Thanks for clarifying about where these numbers are from.

Someone else mentioned the bigs being a significant part of defense. It would be interesting to see what some of those players ratings are when you compare who their big man was behind them.

Also based on what I have heard read from a number of people Kuzma is not particularly good defensively so that's an example (along with I believe Avery Bradley's mysterious low advanced defensive ratings) of how these numbers are ones to consider and as a piece of the puzzle.

I've heard the same thing about Kuzma. But Kuzma's defensive rating of 106.1 isn't terrible, even though isn't particularly good either. So Kuzma's rating could be read to support the narrative we've heard. And for all we know, he's not as bad as we've heard. As for Bradley, his defensive rating of 107.5 last season wasn't great. Regarding his horrible rating this season, I think it's physical issues. He played only 55 games last season because of injuries. This season he's played even fewer games because of injuries, which have included a sports hernia and more recently surgery to repair torn muscles. He just hasn't been the player he used to be physically and it shows in his defensive ratings this season and even last season.

To your main point, I agree that these numbers are just one piece of the defensive puzzle. Yet, I think they're generally a pretty useful indicator of a player's defensive performance relative to others around the League. They can also provide some indication of a player's defensive improvement or lack thereof over time. And they can tell us something about the impact of coaching as we see player's numbers chance from one year to the next with a change in head coach.

A couple of interesting tidbits I noticed. Wiggins defensive rating in 2015-16 was 106.6. Last season in his first season under Thibs it got significantly worst at 110.4. His rating has improved this season to 108, but that's still not as good as it was two seasons ago. KAT's trajectory has been nearly identical to Andrew's. Two seasons ago, KAT had a rating of 108. Last season, in his first season under Thibs, got significantly worse at 110.8. Now it's improved back to around where it was two seasons ago. Jamaal's defensive rating last season was 108.4, not nearly as bad as his 113 rating this season. Two seasons ago, Jamaal's rating was actually very good at 103.1. Hard to know what all this means, but it's interesting.

For sure some of Bradley's defensive numbers are physical this year but there is no way even if he was less able he was as bad as DRPM has him for example. I think he was slightly better than Bazz or something. Lol if it was just this year's numbers it wouldn't be as much of a talking point but it's been brought up that his numbers in past years are less than you would expect. I think Leonard last year had some meh advanced defensive numbers which was also surprising. They are absolutely worth looking at though.

I'd be curious to know if defensive rating the last few years for player seasons in general has increased. I would think so because of defenove ratujf for teams has gone up but not sure how to looking that up.

Two seasons ago KAT and Wiggins played quite a number of games with KG and Prince. That's what positively impacted their defensive rating. Once you pull out the vets, KAT and Wiggins have been bad. I believe Gibson and Butler are almost solely responsible for any improvement we've seen in their D-rating this season as well. KAT and Wig are the common thread in a team that hasn't played good defense for a number of years now.

The measurement itself here is the problem. Way too much noise in it to be useful. It's hard to get a true picture of overall defensive play when you watch a majority of the games on TV. I can see what's happening on the ball, but not much beyond that. My eye tells me Wiggins is now an excellent on-ball defender. But I can't honestly judge what he does away from the ball. Although he is getting his hands on more balls now than I can remember. But the bottom line is you can't convince me Wig is a poor defender any more.

lipoli390 wrote:

crazy-canuck wrote:Those are their drtg numbers, but crawford has a big impact on those numbers. Take him out of the equation and the individual drtg numbers become bearable.

Throw tyus in for teague, its even better.

No doubt that teammates have an impact on a player's defensive rating. I agree completely that Crawford drags down his teammates' defensive ratings, which makes the defensive rating of Tyus Jones even more impressive since almost all his minutes have come with Crawford on the floor.

What strikes me is how even historically elite defenders like Butler and Taj mediocre defensive ratings at best. Some of that is playing with KAT, Wiggins and especially Teague. But it would seem that a significant part of the equation is coaching. I think the article you posted to start this thread speaks to that.

this is also the first time that taj and butler have ever played with poor defenders at c. niah, lopez, adans, etc..

To add to our defense and inparticular how it pertains to crawford.

From britt+jon of the atlantic via reddit:

"From Brit Robson of The Athletic: "[Crawford] has logged nearly 42 percent of the total minutes the Wolves have played thus far this season and his defensive rating is 113.7 points allowed per 100 possessions. That is more than three points per 100 possessions over what the worst team, Phoenix, has allowed this season. It almost singlehandedly drops the Wolves from the middle of the pack to a bottom four rating. If Crawford is on the court, the Wolves had damn well better be hitting their shots if they expect to win. In fact, Crawford's defensive rating in games the Wolves have won is 109.1 -- opponents perform like a top-seven offense. But the Wolves triumph anyway in part because their offensive rating when Crawford is on the court is 114.6. But the flipside to that is carnage. In losses this season, the Wolves have surrendered 119.2 points per 100 possessions with Crawford on the court, while scoring only 100.3 points per 100 possessions."