Minnesota Sports Forum

sjm34 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:
I wonder if instead of a firing Thibs will take a demotion to be GM? Offer him firing or force him to hire a Headcoach.

Pretty sure we don't want Thibs as our GM. He came in and gave Gorgui a 4yr/64 mil deal and offered Shabazz a 4yr/40 mil deal. Good teams don't give out 4yr deals to role players during the rebuilding stage. They don't offer deals a year early to role players (G). He traded a solid defensive PG who knew how to run an offense for a late 1st round pick and then offered up a 3yr/57 mil deal to Teague. He signed Cole to a 3 yr deal and won't even play him. The only acceptable deals were for Butler and Taj, and neither are considered to be steals.

We went from being the brightest young core in the league to an average team with no real assets and in cap hell, which is about to get significantly worse over the next two years.

To be fair... there might be some revisionist history here. Virtually the entire league has regrets from the 2016 (and even 2017) offseason. At the time, I remember many posts about how the Wolves did not do anything as egregious as signing Mozgov for $64M. Or Evan Turner for $75M. Or Luol Deng for $90M. Or Chandler Parsons for $96M. These guys are littered all over the league.

I believe many called Aldrich's $21M reasonable. Dieng was an overpay, especially in hindsight. His apparent downfall could be from dumb Wolves planning/analysis. Or, it could be something else... maybe Dieng is a contract player and is skating? I dunno. And I dunno how teams can always know these things. The other angle is that the league has also changed on the court, rendering a guy like Aldrich mostly moot. I'm not giving Thibodeau a pass for his GM work... but I think Thibodeau should be judged even worse on his coaching and keeping up with the times on the court.

And if we're giving Thibs a knock for Muhammad... does he get any credit for actually signing him for a HUGE discount... 1/2 of what he made on his rookie deal?

It might be revisionist history for you, but I called him out on it at the time. Just because other teams made bad deals as well, doesn't excuse it. Did the warriors make a bad deal, the Spurs....

Thibs got Shabazz at the minimum because the offers dried up. That, in know way diminishes the bad call he made the year before. This shows poor talent evaluation on Thibs part. I don't have an issue with Cole's contract. I have an issue with giving it to him, and then never playing him. Why not have a minimum level talent on the bench instead. So in your mind, Cole became useless in one off season. He filled a nice role for the Clippers the season before we got him.

You also need to consider that guys like Turner and Parsons are considered starting level talent, while Thibs himself said he considered G a bench player. So he was willing to pay two bench players 26 mil a year. What successful team does that Abe?

sjm34 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:
I wonder if instead of a firing Thibs will take a demotion to be GM? Offer him firing or force him to hire a Headcoach.

Pretty sure we don't want Thibs as our GM. He came in and gave Gorgui a 4yr/64 mil deal and offered Shabazz a 4yr/40 mil deal. Good teams don't give out 4yr deals to role players during the rebuilding stage. They don't offer deals a year early to role players (G). He traded a solid defensive PG who knew how to run an offense for a late 1st round pick and then offered up a 3yr/57 mil deal to Teague. He signed Cole to a 3 yr deal and won't even play him. The only acceptable deals were for Butler and Taj, and neither are considered to be steals.

We went from being the brightest young core in the league to an average team with no real assets and in cap hell, which is about to get significantly worse over the next two years.

To be fair... there might be some revisionist history here. Virtually the entire league has regrets from the 2016 (and even 2017) offseason. At the time, I remember many posts about how the Wolves did not do anything as egregious as signing Mozgov for $64M. Or Evan Turner for $75M. Or Luol Deng for $90M. Or Chandler Parsons for $96M. These guys are littered all over the league.

I believe many called Aldrich's $21M reasonable. Dieng was an overpay, especially in hindsight. His apparent downfall could be from dumb Wolves planning/analysis. Or, it could be something else... maybe Dieng is a contract player and is skating? I dunno. And I dunno how teams can always know these things. The other angle is that the league has also changed on the court, rendering a guy like Aldrich mostly moot. I'm not giving Thibodeau a pass for his GM work... but I think Thibodeau should be judged even worse on his coaching and keeping up with the times on the court.

And if we're giving Thibs a knock for Muhammad... does he get any credit for actually signing him for a HUGE discount... 1/2 of what he made on his rookie deal?

It might be revisionist history for you, but I called him out on it at the time. Just because other teams made bad deals as well, doesn't excuse it. Did the warriors make a bad deal, the Spurs....

Thibs got Shabazz at the minimum because the offers dried up. That, in know way diminishes the bad call he made the year before. This shows poor talent evaluation on Thibs part. I don't have an issue with Cole's contract. I have an issue with giving it to him, and then never playing him. Why not have a minimum level talent on the bench instead. So in your mind, Cole became useless in one off season. He filled a nice role for the Clippers the season before we got him.

You also need to consider that guys like Turner and Parsons are considered starting level talent, while Thibs himself said he considered G a bench player. So he was willing to pay two bench players 26 mil a year. What successful team does that Abe?

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:
I wonder if instead of a firing Thibs will take a demotion to be GM? Offer him firing or force him to hire a Headcoach.

Pretty sure we don't want Thibs as our GM. He came in and gave Gorgui a 4yr/64 mil deal and offered Shabazz a 4yr/40 mil deal. Good teams don't give out 4yr deals to role players during the rebuilding stage. They don't offer deals a year early to role players (G). He traded a solid defensive PG who knew how to run an offense for a late 1st round pick and then offered up a 3yr/57 mil deal to Teague. He signed Cole to a 3 yr deal and won't even play him. The only acceptable deals were for Butler and Taj, and neither are considered to be steals.

We went from being the brightest young core in the league to an average team with no real assets and in cap hell, which is about to get significantly worse over the next two years.

To be fair... there might be some revisionist history here. Virtually the entire league has regrets from the 2016 (and even 2017) offseason. At the time, I remember many posts about how the Wolves did not do anything as egregious as signing Mozgov for $64M. Or Evan Turner for $75M. Or Luol Deng for $90M. Or Chandler Parsons for $96M. These guys are littered all over the league.

I believe many called Aldrich's $21M reasonable. Dieng was an overpay, especially in hindsight. His apparent downfall could be from dumb Wolves planning/analysis. Or, it could be something else... maybe Dieng is a contract player and is skating? I dunno. And I dunno how teams can always know these things. The other angle is that the league has also changed on the court, rendering a guy like Aldrich mostly moot. I'm not giving Thibodeau a pass for his GM work... but I think Thibodeau should be judged even worse on his coaching and keeping up with the times on the court.

And if we're giving Thibs a knock for Muhammad... does he get any credit for actually signing him for a HUGE discount... 1/2 of what he made on his rookie deal?

At a season ticket holder meeting I attended last summer, Thibs referred to Gorgui as the Wolves' most improved player over the course of last season. Gorgui already had his contract, so it doesn't sound like Gorgui was skating - at least in Thibs' mind. Interesting that Thibs considered Gorgui the team's most improved player after already considering him good enough before the season to give him a lucrative contract. I've always liked Gorgui, but the problem with the contract is that Gorgui doesn't have a modern NBA PF game and has never been enough of a defender or rim protector to justify such a contract. Those are things Thibs should have known when he signed him.

I agree that Thibs has been worse as a head coach than as PBO. But he's been unimpressive to say the least in his management role. I hold Thibs to a higher standard than not signing egregious contracts. Note that the Lakers' GM who signed Deng and Mozgov has been fired. Note also that it was Bazz who saved Thibs from signing what would have been an egregious contract last summer.

lipoli390 wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:
I wonder if instead of a firing Thibs will take a demotion to be GM? Offer him firing or force him to hire a Headcoach.

Pretty sure we don't want Thibs as our GM. He came in and gave Gorgui a 4yr/64 mil deal and offered Shabazz a 4yr/40 mil deal. Good teams don't give out 4yr deals to role players during the rebuilding stage. They don't offer deals a year early to role players (G). He traded a solid defensive PG who knew how to run an offense for a late 1st round pick and then offered up a 3yr/57 mil deal to Teague. He signed Cole to a 3 yr deal and won't even play him. The only acceptable deals were for Butler and Taj, and neither are considered to be steals.

We went from being the brightest young core in the league to an average team with no real assets and in cap hell, which is about to get significantly worse over the next two years.

To be fair... there might be some revisionist history here. Virtually the entire league has regrets from the 2016 (and even 2017) offseason. At the time, I remember many posts about how the Wolves did not do anything as egregious as signing Mozgov for $64M. Or Evan Turner for $75M. Or Luol Deng for $90M. Or Chandler Parsons for $96M. These guys are littered all over the league.

I believe many called Aldrich's $21M reasonable. Dieng was an overpay, especially in hindsight. His apparent downfall could be from dumb Wolves planning/analysis. Or, it could be something else... maybe Dieng is a contract player and is skating? I dunno. And I dunno how teams can always know these things. The other angle is that the league has also changed on the court, rendering a guy like Aldrich mostly moot. I'm not giving Thibodeau a pass for his GM work... but I think Thibodeau should be judged even worse on his coaching and keeping up with the times on the court.

And if we're giving Thibs a knock for Muhammad... does he get any credit for actually signing him for a HUGE discount... 1/2 of what he made on his rookie deal?

It might be revisionist history for you, but I called him out on it at the time. Just because other teams made bad deals as well, doesn't excuse it. Did the warriors make a bad deal, the Spurs....

Thibs got Shabazz at the minimum because the offers dried up. That, in know way diminishes the bad call he made the year before. This shows poor talent evaluation on Thibs part. I don't have an issue with Cole's contract. I have an issue with giving it to him, and then never playing him. Why not have a minimum level talent on the bench instead. So in your mind, Cole became useless in one off season. He filled a nice role for the Clippers the season before we got him.

You also need to consider that guys like Turner and Parsons are considered starting level talent, while Thibs himself said he considered G a bench player. So he was willing to pay two bench players 26 mil a year. What successful team does that Abe?

SJM -- I agree with you on this. I also want to add a comment on the "hindsight" issue. The hindsight defense seems to be a popular one when it comes to defending Thibs as PBO. Yet, nearly everyone in every profession is judged largely with hindsight. Employers look at what you've accomplished and whether you've been successful. In the companies I've worked for, if the sales team didn't hit its targets for several quarter, the sales director would be fired. It didn't matter what the sales director knew or should have known historically; what mattered were the results.

sjm34 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:
I wonder if instead of a firing Thibs will take a demotion to be GM? Offer him firing or force him to hire a Headcoach.

Pretty sure we don't want Thibs as our GM. He came in and gave Gorgui a 4yr/64 mil deal and offered Shabazz a 4yr/40 mil deal. Good teams don't give out 4yr deals to role players during the rebuilding stage. They don't offer deals a year early to role players (G). He traded a solid defensive PG who knew how to run an offense for a late 1st round pick and then offered up a 3yr/57 mil deal to Teague. He signed Cole to a 3 yr deal and won't even play him. The only acceptable deals were for Butler and Taj, and neither are considered to be steals.

We went from being the brightest young core in the league to an average team with no real assets and in cap hell, which is about to get significantly worse over the next two years.