Minnesota Sports Forum

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Why do we care about stats from years ago? He actually used to be a good defender on the ball as the stats suggest, but I don't know how anyone could keep that argument after watching him this year. He gets obliterated in the PnR and commits a decent amount of blocking fouls because he doesn't beat his man to the spot and flops. He's getting torched by guys like Elfrid Payton. It's night and day watching him defend versus a guy like Dunn defend. Ricky isn't a good defender anymore and stats from years ago really shouldn't automatically carry over to the player he is today.

That was in response to the Team Ricky article.

Oh please, Dunn gets lit up by the likes of Brandon Jennings on semi regular basis. Day and night my ass....

Dunn is two spots lower than Ricky if you take out the two guys playing less than 8 minutes a game and Dunn is playing half the minutes Ricky is. And Dunn is a rookie while Ricky is a 5 year vet. That's how good Dunn is already. If you watch them play PnR defense it is night and day and if you see otherwise you are blind.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Ricky isn't the only one that struggles at times to contain opposing starting PGs, as they consist of 9 out of the top 20 scorers in the game. Plus, these guys are involved so much in screen and roll action, which requires so much more than just the PG to defend. It's literally all 5 guys because the helpers need help and that's often where things break down for us.

My point isn't to obfuscate the fact that Ricky does struggle at times to get over screens and stay in front of the elite PGs, but there is a reason he is consistently viewed as a good team defender year after year. I can only think of a few starting PGs better than him defensively. Chris Paul and Patrick Beverley are the first two that come to mind.....may be Bledsoe too.

With all due respect, if that's the case he should be a perennial all star. Like I said earlier in this thread, he makes things very easy for us on offense (at least until crunch time). If he's as good as you think on defense we have a top 5 or 6 point guard in the NBA.

Mmmm, I guess we see PG defense a little differently. I don't really think being the 3rd or 4th best starting PG defender is all-star worthy. It's a lot different than having the 3rd or 4th best defensive Center, where the impact on overall team defense is much larger. Even if you look at that DRPM stat, Rubio is something like 150th overall even though he's 7th among PGs.

If Ricky is a top 5 defender we should have a winning record. The notion does not add up when we are on of the worst teams in the league at scoring from the PG position and have consistently been this way on Rubio's watch. He is an above average team defender and an awful man defender. As an aggregate he's gotten worse this year.

thedoper wrote:If Ricky is a top 5 defender we should have a winning record. The notion does not add up when we are on of the worst teams in the league at scoring from the PG position and have consistently been this way on Rubio's watch. He is an above average team defender and an awful man defender. As an aggregate he's gotten worse this year.

I think that nobody has stated that Ricky would have ever been overall top5 defender. He might be just top5 defender in point guard position that doesn't have as much effect for team defense than bigs typically have. Bledsoe is one of the best defending point guards as well, yet Phoenix have had only once winning record during the time he has been there.

thedoper wrote:If Ricky is a top 5 defender we should have a winning record. The notion does not add up when we are on of the worst teams in the league at scoring from the PG position and have consistently been this way on Rubio's watch. He is an above average team defender and an awful man defender. As an aggregate he's gotten worse this year.

He's not an awful man defender. In today's NBA, there are limits as to what you can do when guarding out on the perimeter. It's nearly impossible to keep some of these really gifted PGs in front of you without drawing a foul.

As Mikkemann pointed out and backed up using the Bledsoe example, good defensive PGs can only do so much to impact an overall defense. Rubio may not be as good as Bledsoe or Chris Paul, but I'd certainly take him over the likes of Lillard, Walker, Irving, Teague, and many others when it comes to just the defensive side of the ball.

Bigs are generally the only players that can have a singular impact on a defense. For a simple example, go back to early last year and look at our defensive rating with KG on the court .....mind boggling. And that was a guy who could barely muster up the energy to suit up every game!

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:If Ricky is a top 5 defender we should have a winning record. The notion does not add up when we are on of the worst teams in the league at scoring from the PG position and have consistently been this way on Rubio's watch. He is an above average team defender and an awful man defender. As an aggregate he's gotten worse this year.

He's not an awful man defender. In today's NBA, there are limits as to what you can do when guarding out on the perimeter. It's nearly impossible to keep some of these really gifted PGs in front of you without drawing a foul.

As Mikkemann pointed out and backed up using the Bledsoe example, good defensive PGs can only do so much to impact an overall defense. Rubio may not be as good as Bledsoe or Chris Paul, but I'd certainly take him over the likes of Lillard, Walker, Irving, Teague, and many others when it comes to just the defensive side of the ball.

Bigs are generally the only players that can have a singular impact on a defense. For a simple example, go back to early last year and look at our defensive rating with KG on the court .....mind boggling. And that was a guy who could barely muster up the energy to suit up every game!

Calling Rubio an awful man defender is just awful hatred plain and simple. It's also as dumb shit as I ever read around here.

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:If Ricky is a top 5 defender we should have a winning record. The notion does not add up when we are on of the worst teams in the league at scoring from the PG position and have consistently been this way on Rubio's watch. He is an above average team defender and an awful man defender. As an aggregate he's gotten worse this year.

He's not an awful man defender. In today's NBA, there are limits as to what you can do when guarding out on the perimeter. It's nearly impossible to keep some of these really gifted PGs in front of you without drawing a foul.

As Mikkemann pointed out and backed up using the Bledsoe example, good defensive PGs can only do so much to impact an overall defense. Rubio may not be as good as Bledsoe or Chris Paul, but I'd certainly take him over the likes of Lillard, Walker, Irving, Teague, and many others when it comes to just the defensive side of the ball.

Bigs are generally the only players that can have a singular impact on a defense. For a simple example, go back to early last year and look at our defensive rating with KG on the court .....mind boggling. And that was a guy who could barely muster up the energy to suit up every game!

For what it's worth... it's almost alarming how average Bledsoe is on defense now. I know he carries more of an offensive load, he's older, had a few injuries... and plays for a crappy team... but he's just not the same guy defensively.

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:If Ricky is a top 5 defender we should have a winning record. The notion does not add up when we are on of the worst teams in the league at scoring from the PG position and have consistently been this way on Rubio's watch. He is an above average team defender and an awful man defender. As an aggregate he's gotten worse this year.

He's not an awful man defender. In today's NBA, there are limits as to what you can do when guarding out on the perimeter. It's nearly impossible to keep some of these really gifted PGs in front of you without drawing a foul.

As Mikkemann pointed out and backed up using the Bledsoe example, good defensive PGs can only do so much to impact an overall defense. Rubio may not be as good as Bledsoe or Chris Paul, but I'd certainly take him over the likes of Lillard, Walker, Irving, Teague, and many others when it comes to just the defensive side of the ball.

Bigs are generally the only players that can have a singular impact on a defense. For a simple example, go back to early last year and look at our defensive rating with KG on the court .....mind boggling. And that was a guy who could barely muster up the energy to suit up every game!

It is an absolute must skill to be able to get over a screen in the NBA. I am sorry but the lack of that skill makes Rubio an awful man defender in the NBA. It is a necessary skill he just doesn't possess. His instincts are great, his brain is there, but he just physically cannot do things required of good NBA defenders. It's not hatred as Brooklyn says, I like Rubio and think he's a solid NBA player, and he does do great things on the defensive side of the ball despite his deficiencies. But players need less time to shoot against him which is why we are bottom in the league in PG scoring and have been since he's been here. Lots of players can have a singular impact on D from a variety of positions (not just bigs - Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Leonard, Paul George), Rubio has moments of doing that with good positioning and instincts for helping, but he cannot keep up with his man against almost all the PGs in this league.

Mikkeman wrote:

thedoper wrote:If Ricky is a top 5 defender we should have a winning record. The notion does not add up when we are on of the worst teams in the league at scoring from the PG position and have consistently been this way on Rubio's watch. He is an above average team defender and an awful man defender. As an aggregate he's gotten worse this year.

I think that nobody has stated that Ricky would have ever been overall top5 defender. He might be just top5 defender in point guard position that doesn't have as much effect for team defense than bigs typically have. Bledsoe is one of the best defending point guards as well, yet Phoenix have had only once winning record during the time he has been there.

I think Bledsoe on our team would drastically change our defense. Opposing PGs wouldn't be getting their position at will. At least they would have to fight for it.

thedoper wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:If Ricky is a top 5 defender we should have a winning record. The notion does not add up when we are on of the worst teams in the league at scoring from the PG position and have consistently been this way on Rubio's watch. He is an above average team defender and an awful man defender. As an aggregate he's gotten worse this year.

He's not an awful man defender. In today's NBA, there are limits as to what you can do when guarding out on the perimeter. It's nearly impossible to keep some of these really gifted PGs in front of you without drawing a foul.

As Mikkemann pointed out and backed up using the Bledsoe example, good defensive PGs can only do so much to impact an overall defense. Rubio may not be as good as Bledsoe or Chris Paul, but I'd certainly take him over the likes of Lillard, Walker, Irving, Teague, and many others when it comes to just the defensive side of the ball.

Bigs are generally the only players that can have a singular impact on a defense. For a simple example, go back to early last year and look at our defensive rating with KG on the court .....mind boggling. And that was a guy who could barely muster up the energy to suit up every game!

It is an absolute must skill to be able to get over a screen in the NBA. I am sorry but the lack of that skill makes Rubio an awful man defender in the NBA. It is a necessary skill he just doesn't possess. His instincts are great, his brain is there, but he just physically cannot do things required of good NBA defenders. It's not hatred as Brooklyn says, I like Rubio and think he's a solid NBA player, and he does do great things on the defensive side of the ball despite his deficiencies. But players need less time to shoot against him which is why we are bottom in the league in PG scoring and have been since he's been here. Lots of players can have a singular impact on D from a variety of positions (not just bigs - Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Leonard, Paul George), Rubio has moments of doing that with good positioning and instincts for helping, but he cannot keep up with his man against almost all the PGs in this league.

Don't disagree on the importance of being able to fight over a screen. I will concede that this isn't Ricky's strong suit, but I don't think that alone dictates whether someone is a good vs. awful man defender. There is also things like ball-denial when the man you are guarding doesn't have the ball. Ricky is excellent at this. There is also defense in isolation and the ability to contest shots without fouling. I think Ricky is OK-ish in these two areas. Then there is all the team defensive stuff....

By the way, your belief that the ability to get over screens dictates whether a player is a good man defender doesn't square with your belief that Wiggins is a great defender (which we also disagree on). He's no better than LaVine or Rubio at getting over screens, so he must be awful too in your book???

Dunn is the one guy on our roster that excels at this. It's why I think he could eventually be a better version of Rubio defensively. Now if only he knew how to run an offense and shoot!