Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:I sorta get where Q is coming from with Manu. He was a very different player than Kobe and in a very different situation. The thing about Manu was he was the perfect SG. He could and did do everything. He could basically play PG he could attack to score or pass he could hit outside shots. He moved without the ball. He could defend he played with ridiculous passion. It feels like you could drop Manu on any team and he could fit right in. Kobe on the other hand couldn't get along with the most dominate player of the era in Shaq. That doesn't mean I think Manu was as good or better than Kobe but it is more about giving Manu his due while pointing out the darker side of Kobe in comparison. He could do everything but sometimes passing for him seemed to be done begrudgingly. He always seemed selfish but smart enough to give it up enough and play in a team setting enough but I always felt he had the gifts to be more in that area.

Sure. In fact, if given the time, one could make a case that Kobe Bryant's "selfishness" among superstars is only matched by Wilt Chamberlain.

There are some serious flaws to Kobe's game. But the legacy speaks for itself. And it's one Ginobili can't come close to matching. Remember, it's not like Bryant only won with Shaq. He won multiple titles with an entirely different cast doing it "his way." Granted, many of us think he could have won even more...

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I honestly don't see how Manu is being compared THAT favorably with Kobe Bryant.


[Note: In terms of "production"... Manu isn't even close. At his statistical peak (2008), he was a 19.5 ppg scorer with 4 reb and 5 assists. Even at Per 36 minutes... he was 23 ppg / 6 / 5 that season. Kobe Bryant averaged 26 / 6 / 5 that season per 36 minutes (and it wasn't anything out of the norm for him).

Manu was a more efficient player and I look at both volume and efficiency. That same season, they had the same PER and Manu had a better WS/48.

Kobe was better than Manu at taking more shots, something he excels at to this day despite being the worst offensive option on his team. I'm sure Manu could have generated similar PPG totals if he were more selfish and Pop played him more minutes.

I'm also putting a bit of a premium on longevity and sustained contribution. Kobe is a drag on his team and Manu is still an asset. These last few seasons count too, don't they?

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I honestly don't see how Manu is being compared THAT favorably with Kobe Bryant.


[Note: In terms of "production"... Manu isn't even close. At his statistical peak (2008), he was a 19.5 ppg scorer with 4 reb and 5 assists. Even at Per 36 minutes... he was 23 ppg / 6 / 5 that season. Kobe Bryant averaged 26 / 6 / 5 that season per 36 minutes (and it wasn't anything out of the norm for him).

Manu was a more efficient player and I look at both volume and efficiency. That same season, they had the same PER and Manu had a better WS/48.

Kobe was better than Manu at taking more shots, something he excels at to this day despite being the worst offensive option on his team. I'm sure Manu could have generated similar PPG totals if he were more selfish and Pop played him more minutes.

I'm also putting a bit of a premium on longevity and sustained contribution. Kobe is a drag on his team and Manu is still an asset. These last few seasons count too, don't they?

Sure. But so does the beginning of their careers. Ginobili had his first double-digit scoring season at age 26, while shooting 41.8% that season. Bryant already had 8 seasons far superior to that by that point... making 7 All NBA teams and 6 All Defensive teams by the age of 26.

That's A LOT of late-career decline to overcome...

Manu isn't close to Kobe. Advanced stats are just being overused in this comparison. Nobody cares about MJ's shooting percentages. Kobe has 32,600+ points, 6,100+ assists, 6,800+ boards and 1,800+ steals. Manu has 12,500+ points, 3,500 assists, 2,600+ boards and 1,200+ steals. If you wanna argue their bests are close, fine, but Kobe had the better career by a long-shot. Now, the Kobe to MJ comparison isn't far off, but we know MJ is the best. MJ finished with 32,200+ points, 5,600+ assists, 6,600+ boards and 2,500+ steals in 200+ less games. Kobe is a career 25/5/5/1.5 guy and MJ was 30/6/5/2. Kobe nearly doubled up Manu's stats in about 33% more games played. That has to count for something...like widening the gap between the two on the all-time scale considerably. Also, you don't get the argument of what Manu could have done with more minutes when talking about the best players of all-time. You only get to use what guys actually accomplished, not what they might have accomplished in a different role.

khans2k5 wrote:Manu isn't close to Kobe. Advanced stats are just being overused in this comparison. Nobody cares about MJ's shooting percentages. Kobe has 32,600+ points, 6,100+ assists, 6,800+ boards and 1,800+ steals. Manu has 12,500+ points, 3,500 assists, 2,600+ boards and 1,200+ steals. If you wanna argue their bests are close, fine, but Kobe had the better career by a long-shot. Now, the Kobe to MJ comparison isn't far off, but we know MJ is the best. MJ finished with 32,200+ points, 5,600+ assists, 6,600+ boards and 2,500+ steals in 200+ less games. Kobe is a career 25/5/5/1.5 guy and MJ was 30/6/5/2. Kobe nearly doubled up Manu's stats in about 33% more games played. That has to count for something...like widening the gap between the two on the all-time scale considerably. Also, you don't get the argument of what Manu could have done with more minutes when talking about the best players of all-time. You only get to use what guys actually accomplished, not what they might have accomplished in a different role.

Right, it's true that Kobe played longer than Manu in the NBA and Abe made a good point about his production in the early years, prior to Manu coming over.

I guess I don't put as much stock in pure volume, although I realize it's the more conventional way to look at these things. Kobe played a lot of years and took a lot of shots, no question about it.

Q12543 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Manu isn't close to Kobe. Advanced stats are just being overused in this comparison. Nobody cares about MJ's shooting percentages. Kobe has 32,600+ points, 6,100+ assists, 6,800+ boards and 1,800+ steals. Manu has 12,500+ points, 3,500 assists, 2,600+ boards and 1,200+ steals. If you wanna argue their bests are close, fine, but Kobe had the better career by a long-shot. Now, the Kobe to MJ comparison isn't far off, but we know MJ is the best. MJ finished with 32,200+ points, 5,600+ assists, 6,600+ boards and 2,500+ steals in 200+ less games. Kobe is a career 25/5/5/1.5 guy and MJ was 30/6/5/2. Kobe nearly doubled up Manu's stats in about 33% more games played. That has to count for something...like widening the gap between the two on the all-time scale considerably. Also, you don't get the argument of what Manu could have done with more minutes when talking about the best players of all-time. You only get to use what guys actually accomplished, not what they might have accomplished in a different role.

Right, it's true that Kobe played longer than Manu in the NBA and Abe made a good point about his production in the early years, prior to Manu coming over.

I guess I don't put as much stock in pure volume, although I realize it's the more conventional way to look at these things. Kobe played a lot of years and took a lot of shots, no question about it.

The thing is... despite taking all those shots... he made enough of them to win 5 championships and make multiple other NBA Finals. Many of them were with him as the team's best player. Others with him behind who was arguably the league's best player at the time.

Kobe's being discussed as a top ten player of all time . Manu might be in the discussion for top 50. There really is no comparing the two. Eye ball test should tell you that.

Kobe's being discussed as a top ten player of all time . Manu might be in the discussion for top 50. There really is no comparing the two. Eye ball test should tell you that.

PorkChop wrote:Kobe's being discussed as a top ten player of all time . Manu might be in the discussion for top 50. There really is no comparing the two. Eye ball test should tell you that.

That wasn't really the point Q was making if I inderstood him correctly.

Via David Aldridge on Twitter

Kobe: three, crossover three, missed, three, three left of the key, air ball. Two minutes in.


Bryant takes a breather after getting up 10 shots in eight minutes: 5-10 for 13 points. Sixers up three.