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Re: Zach's a SG
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:50 pm
by Monster
Would everyone have been happier if Sam had said the cliche "Zach is a basketball player"?
Re: Zach's a SG
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:55 pm
by Coolbreeze44
monsterpile wrote:Would everyone have been happier if Sam had said the cliche "Zach is a basketball player"?
I know I would have.
Re: Zach's a SG
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:08 pm
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
longstrangetrip wrote:Sam Mitchell continues to be pummeled for thinking Zach LaVine is a PG. I thought it would be interesting to compare Zach's stats to the two PGs drafted ahead of him last year and the two PGs drafted in the lottery this year. Warning: these comparative stats are blatantly self-serving in supporting my narrative that Zach really is a good PG.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2016&p1=lavinza01&y2=2016&p2=smartma01&y3=2016&p3=paytoel01&y4=2016&p4=mudiaem01&y5=2016&p5=russeda01&p6=
I'm pretty sure Sam and his staff are privy to these stats, and it explains why he is so prickly when challenged about his decision. Overall, Zach's stats are better than all of the other four. Further, they are all starters, and Zach is a backup (well, at least when Rubio honors us with his presence on the court). Take a look at the advanced stats. Zach has by far the best TS% and PER and is tied with Payton for the best WS. Despite his 8 TO game two games ago, he is in the middle of the pack in TOV%. Turning to per 36 stats, Zach is by far the highest scorer, second in rebounds and third in assists. Stats are meant to be interpreted, so I invite anyone to make a case for Zach not having the best year this year of the five recent lottery PG draft picks.
And yet Sam is ripped mercilessly on this and other fan message boards for daring to think Zach is adequate as a PG! I can only imagine the abuse coaches in Orlando, Boston, LA and Denver are getting for continuing to start their respective disasters at PG...I expect all will be fired before the end of the year.
Fans will continue to say "Zach makes bad decisions, he doesn't have the basketball IQ to be a PG, etc", but those are only opinions...and statistics are facts. And as the great Daniel Patrick Moynihan once said: "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts". I'm pretty sure Moynihan would agree with me that Zach is performing just fine at PG compared to his peer group, and still getting better!
Stats are only half the analysis, LST. Watching the games is the other half. The eye test tells me that Zach LaVine can't run an offense, he has limited court vision and he's not adept to the nuances of the point guard position. He can't control pace of play, he can't organize his four teammates on the court and he's not smart enough to make the correct play time after time. He's a better shooting guard for now and for the future, and that's where he needs to be playing.
Re: Zach's a SG
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:53 pm
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
Camden wrote:longstrangetrip wrote:Sam Mitchell continues to be pummeled for thinking Zach LaVine is a PG. I thought it would be interesting to compare Zach's stats to the two PGs drafted ahead of him last year and the two PGs drafted in the lottery this year. Warning: these comparative stats are blatantly self-serving in supporting my narrative that Zach really is a good PG.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2016&p1=lavinza01&y2=2016&p2=smartma01&y3=2016&p3=paytoel01&y4=2016&p4=mudiaem01&y5=2016&p5=russeda01&p6=
I'm pretty sure Sam and his staff are privy to these stats, and it explains why he is so prickly when challenged about his decision. Overall, Zach's stats are better than all of the other four. Further, they are all starters, and Zach is a backup (well, at least when Rubio honors us with his presence on the court). Take a look at the advanced stats. Zach has by far the best TS% and PER and is tied with Payton for the best WS. Despite his 8 TO game two games ago, he is in the middle of the pack in TOV%. Turning to per 36 stats, Zach is by far the highest scorer, second in rebounds and third in assists. Stats are meant to be interpreted, so I invite anyone to make a case for Zach not having the best year this year of the five recent lottery PG draft picks.
And yet Sam is ripped mercilessly on this and other fan message boards for daring to think Zach is adequate as a PG! I can only imagine the abuse coaches in Orlando, Boston, LA and Denver are getting for continuing to start their respective disasters at PG...I expect all will be fired before the end of the year.
Fans will continue to say "Zach makes bad decisions, he doesn't have the basketball IQ to be a PG, etc", but those are only opinions...and statistics are facts. And as the great Daniel Patrick Moynihan once said: "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts". I'm pretty sure Moynihan would agree with me that Zach is performing just fine at PG compared to his peer group, and still getting better!
Stats are only half the analysis, LST. Watching the games is the other half. The eye test tells me that Zach LaVine can't run an offense, he has limited court vision and he's not adept to the nuances of the point guard position. He can't control pace of play, he can't organize his four teammates on the court and he's not smart enough to make the correct play time after time. He's a better shooting guard for now and for the future, and that's where he needs to be playing.
While I agree with many of your eye test observations, I don't agree with the conclusion in your last sentence. I use eye test as much as anyone, and my eye test tells me Zach is more comfortable offensively at SG than PG. And that shouldn't be surprising...he's a 20-year-old player who didn't even play PG in college. He's really just learning how to be a PG in the NBA, and still he is outperforming his peer group significantly. And he's improving. If Sam is looking at the stats, I don't know why he would change his course.
But actually eye test is the main reason I don't want Zach at SG (except against little teams like Indy and Portland). Zach looked great to me on offense late last season and he was terrific yesterday matched up with George Hill, but he also got beat up consistently on defense last year (and I think my eye test perception is also supported by defensive data, dirty though it might be). After suffering through a couple seasons of Luke Ridnour trying to stop big SGs, I have become a fan of mismatches in our favor, and we didn't have that last year when Zach was playing SG. I much prefer seeing Wig's long arms in the face of opposing SG's rather than Zach.
Eye test opinions are great, and they are what make message boards like this fun. But ultimately I want my head coach making decisions based more on fact than opinion, and the facts say Zach is playing PG better than his young peer group.
Re: Zach's a SG
Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:15 am
by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
http://www.canishoopus.com/2015/11/14/9733532/recognizing-the-problem-the-wolves-and-the-point-guard-position
http://punchdrunkwolves.com/2015/11/14/lavine-at-point-guard-an-ongoing-and-complex-question/
How many more do I have to find and post before this stupid ass argument is over? Points, assists, rebounds, scoring efficiency. None of those matter if you can't perform the basic functions of a PG at the NBA level and Zach can't do the basic functions of an NBA PG. Watch the offense with Ricky and Miller at the helm and when Zach is at the helm. It's night and day. Even Tyus knows how to run an offense better than Zach. Zach could score 25 a game. If we lose all of them because the offense as a whole can't run effectively due to Zach's inability to run and manage an NBA offense then why does it matter what his individual stats are? We win games when Ricky plays and lose them when Zach plays. That's the difference between having a real PG and a fake one.
Re: Zach's a SG
Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:21 am
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
Do we want LaVine playing better than his rookie class group or do we want LaVine to be the best player he can be at a position that is better for him? Your argument, in my opinion, means little to nothing, no offense. Elfrid Payton does not play for the Wolves. Zach LaVine does. LaVine might have better numbers than Payton, if that's how you're looking at it, but Payton can run an offense. Payton has much better instincts than LaVine at the point guard position. Also, LaVine's close to 6'6. He's a freak athlete. He's got a good shooting stroke and the talent/mentality to score. He's still a mismatch at SG. I don't know why that's being downplayed. You're acting like he's 6'2 Monta Ellis or Luke Ridnour when he's not, not even close.
Re: Zach's a SG
Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:37 am
by Monster
I got to give props to LST for sticking to this Lavine as PG thing. He is nearly alone in his position but keeps firing away.
Part of me thinks he is sitting behind the screen tapping his fingers together while laughing like one of those villains in movies all while enjoying the show he is producing with these takes. I only think that because it's funny I don't think he does that...well I think he did a few times last year when he kept ripping Love but I will forgive him for that I guess. Lol
I don't buy Lavine as a PG but I don't have the door completely closed on it either. He has the raw skills for it so that doesn't hold him back too much. It's mental and most of use are skeptical he can learn develop that aspect of the game. I do see a flash here and there of his playmaking ability and then something goes wrong sometimes in pretty bad fashion. Ultimately I think this all works itself out because I think Zach will break through at some point this season maybe sooner rather than later and become "a basketball player" and will be playing plenty of minutes doing his Zach Lavine thing and it will continue to trend more positive than negative.
Re: Zach's a SG
Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:52 am
by Tactical unit
LST you seem to think some of us think we are smarter than Sam, I'll speak for myself here and say that I would really hope that's not the case with him having an NBA career and this not being his first time as a head coach. I'm confident Sam has a wealth of NBA knowledge but I also see the mans flaws. I am least impressed with his opinion on Zach being a PG and there are plenty of questionable rotations, starting lineup decisions. Does Sam have fire in him and seem to have respect from the players...YES.
Your stats just show that Zach is a massive talent, they don't show anything about his ability to run an offense. Lets just pretend Ricky is healthy for a second......you would prefer Zach to a backup PG? I want this kid getting as many minutes as possible and more importantly at the position where he can fly up and down the sidelines after every missed shot. I don't want him coming back to the ball as the PG outlet. I don't want him starting the offense in the half court, I want him coming off picks to get open and do what he does best SCORE!!!
Re: Zach's a SG
Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:43 am
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
Courtney Lee, Tony Allen, Udrih.....Hoping to see Zach playing some SG again today given the matchups in Memphis.
Re: Zach's a SG
Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:03 am
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
khans2k5 wrote:http://www.canishoopus.com/2015/11/14/9733532/recognizing-the-problem-the-wolves-and-the-point-guard-position
http://punchdrunkwolves.com/2015/11/14/lavine-at-point-guard-an-ongoing-and-complex-question/
How many more do I have to find and post before this stupid ass argument is over? Points, assists, rebounds, scoring efficiency. None of those matter if you can't perform the basic functions of a PG at the NBA level and Zach can't do the basic functions of an NBA PG. Watch the offense with Ricky and Miller at the helm and when Zach is at the helm. It's night and day. Even Tyus knows how to run an offense better than Zach. Zach could score 25 a game. If we lose all of them because the offense as a whole can't run effectively due to Zach's inability to run and manage an NBA offense then why does it matter what his individual stats are? We win games when Ricky plays and lose them when Zach plays. That's the difference between having a real PG and a fake one.
So, points, assists, rebounds and scoring efficiency don't matter in the NBA, but I'm the one making the "stupid ass argument" :confused:! Add in good defense, which the numbers say Zach is much improved in this year, and you have described exactly what I want my backup PG to do...score, assist, rebound, shoot efficiently and play defense. And Zach at age 20 already does them all better than all the point guards who were drafted higher than him in the past 2 years...and he continues to improve! What am I missing here? He's statistically better than starters Smart, Payton, Mudiay and Russell, but we don't think he's good enough to back up Rubio on our championship team...sheesh!
I generally like Eric in Madison (whose article you posted), but he
always analyzes the game ignoring the defensive side of the ball. I don't, and neither do Sam Mitchell or Jim Peterson. I'm going with those two guys' opinion over Eric in Madison's.