Because I'm bored hypotheticals

[AbeVigodaLive]

1) The Dream, especially since the Dream owned him head to head at the beginning of Shaq's career.

2) Ewing - Am really surprised I am the only one to go Ewing. Robinson was such an amazing character guy but Ewing was the superior baller in my mind.

3) Can I go Mutumbo? Mourning and Howard are a toss up to me. They are similar players. In a pinch I guess I say Howard because he was maybe a bit more athletic.

4) Love Kg, but it has to be Duncan all the way.

5) Barkley - Charles was one of the most unique talents that I ever saw play. We were truly spoiled with the talent of the 80s to 90s with the transition from Bird/Magic to Michael. That was when my passion for the NBA started and hasn't waned since.

Don't know about that. Because they were in opposing conferences early in Shaq's career, they didn't play each other THAT much. As for the 1995 Finals, Hakeem gets all the glory. He was definitely the most deserving player for Finals MVP and was very productive and consistent.

More importantly, however, he had the vastly superior supporting cast for those 4 games. Check out the numbers between Shaq and Hakeem:

Hakeem: 32.8 ppg / 11.5 reb / 5.5 ast / 2.0 blk / 48% fg (never shot over 50% in any game)
Shaq: 28.0 ppg / 12.5 reb / 6.3 ast / 2.5 blk / 60% fg

[thedoper]

1) The Dream, especially since the Dream owned him head to head at the beginning of Shaq's career.

2) Ewing - Am really surprised I am the only one to go Ewing. Robinson was such an amazing character guy but Ewing was the superior baller in my mind.

3) Can I go Mutumbo? Mourning and Howard are a toss up to me. They are similar players. In a pinch I guess I say Howard because he was maybe a bit more athletic.

4) Love Kg, but it has to be Duncan all the way.

5) Barkley - Charles was one of the most unique talents that I ever saw play. We were truly spoiled with the talent of the 80s to 90s with the transition from Bird/Magic to Michael. That was when my passion for the NBA started and hasn't waned since.

Don't know about that. Because they were in opposing conferences early in Shaq's career, they didn't play each other THAT much. As for the 1995 Finals, Hakeem gets all the glory. He was definitely the most deserving player for Finals MVP and was very productive and consistent.

More importantly, however, he had the vastly superior supporting cast for those 4 games. Check out the numbers between Shaq and Hakeem:

Hakeem: 32.8 ppg / 11.5 reb / 5.5 ast / 2.0 blk / 48% fg (never shot over 50% in any game)
Shaq: 28.0 ppg / 12.5 reb / 6.3 ast / 2.5 blk / 60% fg

Fair enough on the minutiae, never looked at the numbers only a vague recollection at this point. I only remember Hakeem playing out of his mind looking back at the game stats Shaq seemed to have a substantial number of turnovers each game. My assumption is that this may have involved Hakeems superior defensive positioning at key points in the game. Great era either way. I saw Hakeem play in person a few times so that is probably coloring my preference more than anything.

[Monster]

1) The Dream, especially since the Dream owned him head to head at the beginning of Shaq's career.

2) Ewing - Am really surprised I am the only one to go Ewing. Robinson was such an amazing character guy but Ewing was the superior baller in my mind.

3) Can I go Mutumbo? Mourning and Howard are a toss up to me. They are similar players. In a pinch I guess I say Howard because he was maybe a bit more athletic.

4) Love Kg, but it has to be Duncan all the way.

5) Barkley - Charles was one of the most unique talents that I ever saw play. We were truly spoiled with the talent of the 80s to 90s with the transition from Bird/Magic to Michael. That was when my passion for the NBA started and hasn't waned since.

Don't know about that. Because they were in opposing conferences early in Shaq's career, they didn't play each other THAT much. As for the 1995 Finals, Hakeem gets all the glory. He was definitely the most deserving player for Finals MVP and was very productive and consistent.

More importantly, however, he had the vastly superior supporting cast for those 4 games. Check out the numbers between Shaq and Hakeem:

Hakeem: 32.8 ppg / 11.5 reb / 5.5 ast / 2.0 blk / 48% fg (never shot over 50% in any game)
Shaq: 28.0 ppg / 12.5 reb / 6.3 ast / 2.5 blk / 60% fg

Fair enough on the minutiae, never looked at the numbers only a vague recollection at this point. I only remember Hakeem playing out of his mind looking back at the game stats Shaq seemed to have a substantial number of turnovers each game. My assumption is that this may have involved Hakeems superior defensive positioning at key points in the game. Great era either way. I saw Hakeem play in person a few times so that is probably coloring my preference more than anything.

One thing that I believe Shaq improved on as his career progressed was as a passer. He was always a good passer but when he went to the Lakers he became so much better making the right play that was another reason he was so dominate (even when he was with the Magic). You couldn't just run a bunch of guys at him he would and could hit the open guys he was at another level as a Laker though.

[mrhockey89]

So we have a lot of time to kill between now and the draft and instead of making the same arguments everyday I decided to argue about different stuff. Since we have the first pick in the draft I'm going to throw out some past names and see which of the two you would pick. Since we need a big man the most I will start there.

1) Olajuwon or Shaq

2) David Robinson or Patrick Ewing

3) Mourning or Howard

4) Duncan or Garnett

5) Barkley or Malone

1) Shaq, most dominant center ever not named Wilt.
2) The Admiral (wonder if I still have his poster?)
3) Howard (in his prime, was more dominant)
4) Duncan (great matchup between two all-time greats, but with the Spurs success and Duncan's game having aged so well, it's tough to pick even KG over Duncan...although it'd be interesting to see them if you flipped their teams)
5) Barkley (I'm probably bias since I put him in my "top 3" of people I'd like to spend a day with when I was talking to a buddy today...along with Hugh Hefner and Will Ferrell), but hard not to respect how he played.

I have my "would I want to have a beer with that guy" test. Barkley definitely makes the cut. In fact, he'd be near the top. Karl Malone would not. Here's what I see playing out...

After a few minutes of chit chat...

Malone: "If you're only going to ask me questions about John Stockton, I'm leaving."
Me: "Oh. Sorry. Ummm... errrr... ummm... so this black cowboy thing. What's with that?"
Malone: "Grrrrr..."
Me: "And, the 12 year old you knocked up? You really don't see anything wrong with that? Or, with being a deadbeat dad to the bastard son you left behind after raping that poor girl? What's wrong with you?"

Then, I would probably be murdered with one punch from Karl Malone.

How did I know this was going to end up with you getting murdered after reading the first aggressive question?

[MikkeMan]

Don't know about that. Because they were in opposing conferences early in Shaq's career, they didn't play each other THAT much. As for the 1995 Finals, Hakeem gets all the glory. He was definitely the most deserving player for Finals MVP and was very productive and consistent.

More importantly, however, he had the vastly superior supporting cast for those 4 games. Check out the numbers between Shaq and Hakeem:

Hakeem: 32.8 ppg / 11.5 reb / 5.5 ast / 2.0 blk / 48% fg (never shot over 50% in any game)
Shaq: 28.0 ppg / 12.5 reb / 6.3 ast / 2.5 blk / 60% fg

I think that it is highly debatable that Hakeem's supporting cast would have been better that year.

Houston had regular season record 47-35 that year. They made mid-season trade for Drexler (traded Otis Thorpe and fillers but after that trade Houston's record was just 17-18. Vernon Maxwell was injured in 1st playoff game and missed whole finals and Mario Elie replaced him in starting line-up. Maybe that was one key roster change that improved Houston so much that they were much better team in playoffs than they were in regular season. (note. Mad Max was horribly inefficient chucker and without him Hakeem and Clyde got more possessions.) Houston's Ortg 109.7 was 7th in league and Drtg 107.4 was ranked 12th.

Orlando had record 57-25 that year and had basically their full roster available in finals. So based on their regular season record, they should have been better team. Back then there was not that much difference in strength between conferences. Orlando had Ortg 115.1 was 1st in league and their Drtg 107.8 was ranked 13th.

Let's still compare rosters.

Orlando had:
Anfernee Hardaway - 20.9 pts, 7.2 asts .599 TS% PER 20.8 - 1st team all NBA that year
Horace Grant - 12.6 pts, 9.6 rbs .593 TS% PER 16.9 - 2nd all defensive team that year and his only all star game selection was in previous year, so he was clearly in his prime
Nick Anderson - 15.8 pts per game with .593 TS% .415 3P% PER 17.5
Dennis Scott - 12.9 pts per game with .577 TS% .426 3P% PER 16.3
6th man Brian Shaw 6.4 pts, 5.2 asts, .468 TS% PER 10.4

Houston had:
Clyde Drexler 21.8 pts, 6.3 rbs, 4.8 asts .577 TS% PER 22.4 - 3rd team all NBA that year
Robert Horry 10.2 pts, 5.1 rbs, 3.4 asts, .556 TS% .379 3P% PER 13.5
Mario Elie 8.8 pts, 2.4 rbs, 2.3 asts .631 TS% .398 3P% PER 13.7
Kenny Smith 10.4 pts, 4.0 asts .640 TS% .429 3P% PER 16.2
6th man Sam Cassell 9.5 pts, 4.9 asts .556 TS% PER 15.9

Even though Houston had clearly better bench player in Cassell, I think that no one would have taken Houston's roster without Hakeem instead of Orlando's roster without Shaq. Even if we would rank past his prime Clyde still higher than 2nd year Hardaway (even though NBA ranked them other way around), trio of Grant, Anderson and Scott was clearly superior compared to Horry, Elie and Smith.

But still I think main reason why people think that Hakeem dominated Shaq in those finals was that Houston guarded most of time Shaq without doubling him and Orlando doubled Hakeem almost every time. This allowed Houston's shooters to shoot their three pointers with .402 % when Orlando shot them only .347. These finals also had some of most impressive clutch performances from role players that we have ever seen. Horry averaged 17.8 pts 10.0 rbs, 3.8 asts, 3.0 stls and 2.3 blks with .57 TS%, Elie 16.3 pts, 4.3 rbs, 3.3 asts and 2.0 stls with .785 TS% and Cassell got 14.4 pts 3.0 asts and 1.8 stls with .626 TS% in only 23.3 minutes. Orlando's Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott had some miserable performances. Anderson shot free throws 3/10 and Scott tree pointers 7/29.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Don't know about that. Because they were in opposing conferences early in Shaq's career, they didn't play each other THAT much. As for the 1995 Finals, Hakeem gets all the glory. He was definitely the most deserving player for Finals MVP and was very productive and consistent.

More importantly, however, he had the vastly superior supporting cast for those 4 games. Check out the numbers between Shaq and Hakeem:

Hakeem: 32.8 ppg / 11.5 reb / 5.5 ast / 2.0 blk / 48% fg (never shot over 50% in any game)
Shaq: 28.0 ppg / 12.5 reb / 6.3 ast / 2.5 blk / 60% fg

I think that it is highly debatable that Hakeem's supporting cast would have been better that year.

Houston had regular season record 47-35 that year. They made mid-season trade for Drexler (traded Otis Thorpe and fillers but after that trade Houston's record was just 17-18. Vernon Maxwell was injured in 1st playoff game and missed whole finals and Mario Elie replaced him in starting line-up. Maybe that was one key roster change that improved Houston so much that they were much better team in playoffs than they were in regular season. (note. Mad Max was horribly inefficient chucker and without him Hakeem and Clyde got more possessions.) Houston's Ortg 109.7 was 7th in league and Drtg 107.4 was ranked 12th.

Orlando had record 57-25 that year and had basically their full roster available in finals. So based on their regular season record, they should have been better team. Back then there was not that much difference in strength between conferences. Orlando had Ortg 115.1 was 1st in league and their Drtg 107.8 was ranked 13th.

Let's still compare rosters.

Orlando had:
Anfernee Hardaway - 20.9 pts, 7.2 asts .599 TS% PER 20.8 - 1st team all NBA that year
Horace Grant - 12.6 pts, 9.6 rbs .593 TS% PER 16.9 - 2nd all defensive team that year and his only all star game selection was in previous year, so he was clearly in his prime
Nick Anderson - 15.8 pts per game with .593 TS% .415 3P% PER 17.5
Dennis Scott - 12.9 pts per game with .577 TS% .426 3P% PER 16.3
6th man Brian Shaw 6.4 pts, 5.2 asts, .468 TS% PER 10.4

Houston had:
Clyde Drexler 21.8 pts, 6.3 rbs, 4.8 asts .577 TS% PER 22.4 - 3rd team all NBA that year
Robert Horry 10.2 pts, 5.1 rbs, 3.4 asts, .556 TS% .379 3P% PER 13.5
Mario Elie 8.8 pts, 2.4 rbs, 2.3 asts .631 TS% .398 3P% PER 13.7
Kenny Smith 10.4 pts, 4.0 asts .640 TS% .429 3P% PER 16.2
6th man Sam Cassell 9.5 pts, 4.9 asts .556 TS% PER 15.9

Even though Houston had clearly better bench player in Cassell, I think that no one would have taken Houston's roster without Hakeem instead of Orlando's roster without Shaq. Even if we would rank past his prime Clyde still higher than 2nd year Hardaway (even though NBA ranked them other way around), trio of Grant, Anderson and Scott was clearly superior compared to Horry, Elie and Smith.

But still I think main reason why people think that Hakeem dominated Shaq in those finals was that Houston guarded most of time Shaq without doubling him and Orlando doubled Hakeem almost every time. This allowed Houston's shooters to shoot their three pointers with .402 % when Orlando shot them only .347. These finals also had some of most impressive clutch performances from role players that we have ever seen. Horry averaged 17.8 pts 10.0 rbs, 3.8 asts, 3.0 stls and 2.3 blks with .57 TS%, Elie 16.3 pts, 4.3 rbs, 3.3 asts and 2.0 stls with .785 TS% and Cassell got 14.4 pts 3.0 asts and 1.8 stls with .626 TS% in only 23.3 minutes. Orlando's Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott had some miserable performances. Anderson shot free throws 3/10 and Scott tree pointers 7/29.

I was talking about the series.

Houston's cast played better in the series. Outside of Hardaway and Shaq, some of Orlando's key guys struggled... and at inopportune times. We all know about Nick Anderson falling apart at the line and missing 4 straight free throws to choke away Game 1. He and Dennis Scott (3rd and 4th leading scorers in the regular season) struggled throughout the Finals.

They combined to shoot 42% on threes in the regular season, but only 28% in the Finals. Anderson shot 30% from the line.

Anderson was having a stellar Game 1. 22 / 11 / 5. But after those free throws... he was largely worthless in the series. He didn't score more than 12 points or shoot above 30% the rest of the way.

[TRKO [enjin:12664595]]

That Orlando team could have won a bunch of titles had Shaq never left and Penny would have never got hurt.

[AbeVigodaLive]

That Orlando team could have won a bunch of titles had Shaq never left and Penny would have never got hurt.

Oral history about that era of Orlando Magic and what happened to that team...

http://grantland.com/1990s-orlando-magic-oral-history/

[TRKO [enjin:12664595]]

That Orlando team could have won a bunch of titles had Shaq never left and Penny would have never got hurt.

Oral history about that era of Orlando Magic and what happened to that team...

http://grantland.com/1990s-orlando-magic-oral-history/

Thank you so much for sharing that article. Was an outstanding read.